Update: The city was already making up a short list of candidates when Ticat owner Bob Young called for a facilitator to help resolve the stadium stalemate. See full story here
As posted by Clr. Duvall on the thread " Clr. Bob Bratina- on the Harbourfront Stadium"
Clr. Duvall writes:
As I read the comments from this blog, I find it to be a great debate, but most are commenting agressively without knowing the facts or are assuming they know the facts.This all started with Mr. Young making statements through the media last Thursday without expressing the same to the City when talking in meetings with the City. The City has not had enough time to verify the financial accusations or understand the sudden rejection of the West Harbourfront.
City Staff has worked hard bringing the Pan Am games forward and making sure the city has a legacy they can be proud of once the Pan Am games are done. The Legacy would be a new stadium that is much needed, having a new home for our Hamilton Tiger-Cats that we are all proud of, use of other sport or entertainment programs,getting rid of a brown field and supporting our downtown. For some bloggers to suggest City Council has no idea what we are doing or not listening to others is not correct.
Much work has been put into this endeavour and people reacting negatively to unfounded conclusions is disappointing. Mr.Young has made surprising statements to the press last Thursday that he is losing money which has not been proven, and his suggestion of 3 alternate sites should surely raise some eyebrows. (1) A site which is already owned by a private developer not willing to sell.... (2) Burlington??? I will say no more, and (3)admittingly Chedoke would have problems with the Niagara Escarpment Commission. So why tell the public when it is obvious these locations are not serious alternatives?
What is the real reason for this?
The City wants to have a stadium that the Tiger Cats want to be part of. Mr. Young committed to working with the City in accomplishing this. High management employees on both sides met on several ocassions and understood the West Harbour was the preferred site. Why now have they decided at this late stage to back out?
We want The Tiger Cats to be part of the process and be proud of their Home, but we need to know from them directly to accomplish a mutual agreement, and not from the media, or encouraging public outcry. The City wants the best outcome for the city,taxpayers and our proud football team.
So please bloggers take a deep breath and let the people in charge on both sides work the problems out and then give your opinion when either an agreement is struck or an impasse has been reached.
Thank You
Scott Duvall
Ward 7 Councillor
Thanks Clr. Duvall for your thoughts.
Working it out is cool. As long as it dont take 2 years Elvis P.
ReplyDeletePlease note that views posted on The Hamiltonian by Counsellors or others being interviewed, are not necessarily endorsed by The Hamiltonian, or myself. They are provided for engagement and discussion purposes.
ReplyDeleteIn terms of my view on these matters, they have been expressed here http://caldifalcosblog.blogspot.com/2010/03/business-case-for-west-harbour.html and I continue to stand by these views (which upon review, are particularily relevant).
In terms of the latest developments, I think it is wiser to try to facilitate a resolution. I fully support Mayor Eisenberger and the Tiger Cats, with their efforts to facilitate a solution. There is a time to stand your ground and there is a time to negotiate. In this case, I think the Mayor and The Cats are doing the responsible thing, given what is at stake.
Cal DiFalco
If municipal staff have been working on the West Harbour Stadium Precinct Pogrom, why haven't they put forth a business plan so the public can be properly informed, since my ward seven councillor thinks we are not?
ReplyDeleteWhat other tenants, if any, have signed on to their grand plans to "transform" downtown Hamilton?
Noooooo-body, that's who.
"The City has not had enough time to verify the financial accusations or understand the sudden rejection of the West Harbourfront."
ReplyDeleteClr. Duval
Really, so no thought has been put into any of the potential negatives of this site then. You would think money matters would be first on the list.
"Mr.Young has made surprising statements to the press last Thursday that he is losing money which has not been proven, and his suggestion of 3 alternate sites should surely raise some eyebrows. (1) A site which is already owned by a private developer not willing to sell.
1) the proposed site which is already owned by homeowners not willing to sell, is expropriation only ethical for certain types of people?
I hope Hamiltonians will disregard Duvall's hope that we sheeple will shut up while brass like himself shapes our fate.
ReplyDeleteI have not heard anybody discuss in realistic terms how our finances are so flush as to flush $100 million tax revenues into a bottomless pit called professional sports & games stuff, while all around us, banksters seem intent on destroying the central currencies of our civilization. If Finance Minister Flathead is unable to resist G20 machinations, Canada may be bled billions to keep banksters bonuses flush - where will that money come from? Instead of putting our energy into combating forces that seem truly demonic, we are discussing whether a pretty but non productive asset should be placed here or there. Toss a coin.
The lack of any discussion of the overarching global issues indicates that we sheeple Hamiltonians must roust ourselves to make our voices heard - especially during Duvall's special silence - since it is we taxpayers that will bear the burden for decades to come.
Wow, I certainly hope council hasn't been working on any type of "pogrom" against the West Harbour.
ReplyDeleteThat's NOT the way to get North End Neighbours on your side...
LOL, sorry, couldn't help it - it was an unintentionally funny typo.
Councillor Duvall...Maybe when discussing this at council you could ask staff how much it will cost to purchase the extra acreage required for parking and how much it would cost to build the lots for a stadium away from the west harbour? It would then have to be factored into the city's business plan how many years it would take to recoup this investment based on the number of events at the stadium per year? Would the lot need to be repaved before the original costs are recovered? Would you support a plan where the football team gets the parking revenue. I would call any financial losses on parking a subsidy to the team.
ReplyDeleteI think Councillor Duvall makes sense. We only have what is reported in the media to go on. Why DID Bob Young back out at this late stage? A millionaire doesn't like to be parted from his money for too long. If he claims he will lose 7 million a year in a new stadium, then he must be losing that now, because I see no difference. He said if he knew then what he knew now he would have never bought the team. I think he is planning on selling but doesn't want to look like the bad guy, so he will blame it on the city!
ReplyDeleteI find Duval's response belittling. To be told effectively to shut the F**k up just like the conservative Senator who told women's organizations in Ottawa to do the same leaves me with the feeling that according to Duval taxpayers should not get involve in municipal governance because we do not know every detail of issues which are presented to council. Here is an extract of an email that I sent to Cal prior to Duval's posting.
ReplyDelete"What really surprised me is that us taxpayers with the limited amount of information we have at our disposal can formulate better ideas ,solutions and decision than our most trusted elected officials which are blessed with unlimited resources at their finger tips. I could not care less about football or Pan Am games, this issue with the preferred site endorsed by council ,is close to passion of my time. I will never be able to convince everybody to my side of the discussion, however my nugget of info regarding the Bulldogs made some readers to reflect that if council really support the subsidies to sport organizations which some bloggers agree or disagree as made the point that council is no more smarter than ourselves which gives us the validation of our ideas".
My apologies for stirring the pot and then abandoning IT to boil over. Monday was a trying time for me, drenched in sewage throughout the morning and then literally slithering through cat feces in a crawl space for the remainder of the day. How ironic is that? I really am sorry I missed the fun y'all we're having while I was being humiliated at work. Arguing the vagaries seems moot at this point because I'd only feel more like a jerk.
ReplyDeleteI am the one who should be accused of hypocrisy because I've had a vague changing of heart. We should not have pursued this games bid right from the very start. I am rarely opposed to councilor Merulla but I fear this time he was right. What should have been cause for excitement has become a grueling cat fight.
Mr. Innes sees the bigger picture while the rest of us quibble over end quote. What IT really boils down to is this, get out there October and vote! We're unmasking the candidates for Halloween and Cal's Hamiltonian is the hottest place to be seen.
Mr. Duvall says to butt out and let us figure it out. I say, sure if I thoguht you could do it.
ReplyDeleteElvis P. out
Here's an update Scott duval sent me through a couple of e-mail exchanges. Interesting stuff, that's for sure.
ReplyDelete--
Since last February the City has been going forward with meeting investors and others that are interested in doing business with the city.
I am sure you understand the negotiation process is confidential.
When they complete their work a business plan will become public.
This was explained to the public in February 2010.
I know you understand I cannot comment on in camera items.
In January 2010 Staff presented a report and received direction from Council on the evaluation of two sites to keep within the city budget of 60 million.
On February 18th 2010, Staff presented a report to Council on the 2 sites and approved the West Harbour site as the location for the stadium,warm up track and velodrome. Council also directed Staff to report back on issues including a business plan for the parking, velodrome in the precinct development of a social inclusion program.
Updates were given to Council on the progress and meetings were held with many private businesses.
On April 28th 2010 The Tiger-Cats provided the City with their West Harbour Business Case Analysis.
May 4th 2010 Staff met to discuss the document.
May 6th 2010 the Tiger-Cats announced the West Harbour was an unacceptable location for their football operation.
Many meetings have been scheduled this month to work with various groups on many issues including land acquisitions and environmental studies which have been ongoing.
In July 2010 Staff is to present a business plan for the stadium and velodrome.
I hope this explains the hard work Staff has been doing since the games were announced.
We all knew a 15000 seat stadium would not be sufficient for a legacy and making a new home for our Tiger-Cats. It was expressed to Council by the Cats and others to get the games and we will work in expanding this stadium with private money.
They could bring millions.
Now we are talking with them in private of course of how we can work together in making this successful.
I hope this information is helpful.
Thanks
Councillor Scott Duvall
"What other tenants, if any, have signed on to their grand plans to "transform" downtown Hamilton?
ReplyDeleteNoooooo-body, that's who." - Mark Allan Whittle
Is it any surprise given this city's reputation that we will most likely be left to pull ourselves up by our own boot straps Mark?
Not having tenants and/or investors is not a good reason to stop plans to transform downtown. I'm not a big fan of the "if we build it they will come" justification for public projects, but I don't know if this city has much other choice.
We are going to have to change the image and culture of this city if we want to see anything else change for the better.
Mark...Please share with us the tenants lined up to sign on to a stadium location at another site.I would think the answer is the same "NOOOOOOOOOO BODY"
ReplyDeleteI have to admit I quite dumfounded by all by this. The decision to locate the new stadium to the west harbour was known long before Toronto was awarded the Pan Am Games. My question to council would be why you would have waited so long to engage a key stakeholder like Bob Young and the Tiger Cats? Would it have not been prudent for the City to engage a Key Stakeholder early on before we won? This all could have been settled long before we won; the City and Tiger Cats could have signed a Memorandum of Agreement that if Hamilton won the Pan Am Games that the preferred location for the Tiger Cats and City is location “X”. However based on what I’ve read this process did not occur. In a world where we have instant communication, I guess neither party was interested in speaking with each other.
ReplyDeleteHowever, having stated the above it’s a 2 way street, Bob Young and the Tiger Cats could have contacted the City well in advance of the award to open talks about location suitable to everyone’s needs. How unfortunate indeed.
Kiely and others, thanks for your thoughts. My basic inclination is to trust little people more than big gummerments and big corporations. Little people take longer, are not boastful, flashy or proud so it is often not even recognizable what is going on, even as culture changes from within. Few photo ops. James North and Ottawa St are proximate examples although they too depend on 'big BIA', ;-) to make it happen. The Mustard Festival is a better initiative than the Stadium because they didn't cause taxpayers $100 million pain. We should do more. Organic growth is more sustainable than big splashes, especially when no productivity is involved. Jane Jacobs wrote the bible on this.
ReplyDeleteMy vision is essentially hopeful so I'm not tempted to think we have no choice. However, I am despairing a bit that this vision is being seen as negative, pessimistic, do-nothing, letting Ticats down, and not widely shared or appreciated. This means we may have to push harder and/or scratch our heads over the two $%&* sites.
So for want of a better sales pitch, I'd like to propose that a no-games, no-stadium plan is really a plan to empower little people and a bid to fix & save what we've got - the Bulldogs, Art Gallery, RBG, Hamilton Place, etc. all of which require public support, not to mention all the roads, brownfields and sewers that need expensive repair.
And I'd like to second WRCU2's comment on the quality of Cal's efforts here. Happy Birthday Cal!
Did anyone just see Jeff Rubin on BNN? (between 4th and 5th Habs goal). China car sales blew past US last year - most to first time drivers instead of replacement sales here. Growing 45%/yr. Oil production has not increased despite tapping deep or difficult oil. China uses 1/3 of the oil the US uses (20 mbpd) but will double in 10 years. That extra 8 million bpd will have to come out of North American's consumption which means North America will have to get cut in half. Think of the implications --- besides the price issue ($150 or $200 plus plus). How will that happen, what will change. Like bye bye car, hello bus. Bye bye commuting. Bye bye suburbia. Bye bye logic for QEW stadium. Bye bye Ticats? Bob Young who started Red Hat has become Mr. Old Hat. Nice dream. Too late.
ReplyDeleteGet with the program folks.
If we want to maintain our lifestyle, we better stop entertaining ourselves and become a lot more creative and productive. Put that $100m into productive assets and fixing brownfields.
Good news: Rubin said local manufacturing will roar back because distance costs and because China soon no longer needs WalMart and doesn't want any more failing US pesos. Hamilton can win at this game if we stop wasting time and energy on stupid diversions. Get crackin or others will cut us out.
October 25 game has changed.
"My vision is essentially hopeful so I'm not tempted to think we have no choice. However, I am despairing a bit that this vision is being seen as negative, pessimistic, do-nothing, letting Ticats down, and not widely shared or appreciated." - Bob Innes
ReplyDeleteI think I understand where you're coming from Bob. As I watch this endeavour slip more and more towards becoming a fiasco, I am inclined to agree we should probably just scrap the whole thing because it is looking like important decisions with long lasting effects are going to be made for the wrong reasons and priorities.
All of the "feel good" (and really that's all we were buying) is getting sucked right out of this whole thing. The proposed LRT is shifting toward pipe dream, the stadium has become a magnet of avarice and the usual soap box whingers and media whores are out in force. It may be time to admit to the Pan Am games that we're essentially incompetent and in no place to be conducting this type of event.
Let's clean up the west harbour site, lay some sod and be done with it.
There is a bigger story out there, that MSM is not really reporting on these days, but in the end will have a great effect on things to come.
ReplyDeleteThat is the oil pouring out into the Gulf of Mexico, with no plan in place, there seems nothing that will stop this environmental disaster.
Meanwhile, we bicker over the small stuff, where to put a stadium, which for the most part does not address the future that is coming down the line quite quickly.
We should be investing in redeveloping the brownfields to get jobs here, so that this communty can be self sustaining, instead of the focusing in on events that entertain those with money, leaving those who struggle with nothing.
You right Bob, when you say that oil could go over the top in price, leaving many who live pay cheque to pay cheque, without the means to even get to their jobs, that are out of town.
People do not think, we have the set up of food distribution is a window of three days, thus if food cannot be transported, you know just in time inventory, what will happen, will people go into panic mode.
So along with worry about where the food will come from what about heating their homes, remember now, Canada does not have a national energy policy.
Kiely...If you look at whats been happening to this city in the last 10 years with the downturn in steel, companies leaving and the downtown core falling apart it's time for a feel good story like the Pan-Am games brought us and the civic improvements it would bring. It is a shame to the community that the wishy washyness and negativity coming from city hall along with the disruptiveness of Bob Young has taken all the feel good away.
ReplyDelete"... it's time for a feel good story like the Pan-Am games brought us and the civic improvements it would bring." - Tom
ReplyDeleteAnd for a brief moment in time it looked like it was all going to happen without the collective incompetence of this city rearing its ugly head.
I agree, it is a shame Tom... in more ways than one.