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Friday, June 24, 2016

Episode 8 of "As Hamilton Twists and Turns"

In this episode of As Hamilton Twists and Turns, " the one with the big guns", we find Mayor Eisenberger reaching out to MPs and MPPs, unleashing  a letter of support for LRT and asking them to endorse it. And while some took the bait and provided a strong endorsement, others such as MP and former Mayor Bob Bratina - who in the past appeared to have serious reservations about LRT as it is presently envisioned, according to an aid, declined to sign the letter electing not to influence council's decision. (source- The Spec).

Meanwhile, The Hamiltonian, while unnerving some by continuing to remain neutral and allow for all sides of the discussion to be engaged, engaged its Perspectives Virtual Panel for their advice and found that for the most part, LRT seems to have met with representatives of the Virtual panel's support, albeit in different shades and colours. 

Meanwhile. some fundamental questions posed by The Hamiltonian, (see them by clicking here) appear unanswerable at present , prompting some to question whether the city can sufficiently pass a proof of concept test where LRT is concerned. 

And as quoted in the Hamilton Spectator, Mayor Eisenberger said " I think it's important for people to know how all the elected representative view this significant investment in the city of Hamilton." reminiscent of a pressure driven tactic, which in the past, backfired - click here for the "put up or shut up" ultimatum and how that ended. Still, the Mayor is earning full points by being present in the ring and continues to work this file, as he should.

But will it be enough? Will the "others think it's a good idea, so I should as well" mentality work, or is the real battle in the details? Will the mayor be seen to be trafficking in opinion rather than facts? And is the business case for LRT so strong that it will come to nullify any doubt? 

As the Clr. Terry Whitehead's of the world continue to delve into details and acid test the direction LRT may be headed, will it be the answers or lack thereof to the hard questions that win the day, or will the appetite for LRT be so pervasive that risks teeter between the reasonable and the mysterious? And will the newest Councilor , Clr. Skelly lend force to the acid test? 

All this and more as As Hamilton Twists and Turns continues....

Fade to black morphing between the following images - Clr. Whitehead at his desk reading reports and comparables, Ryan McGreal drafting an article on Raise the Hammer, Mayor Eisenberger speaking to a councillor with a serious look on his face,  Bob Bratina with a grin that could be saying -I told you so....the creative mind of Graham Crawford drafting a poster"

Missed the previous episode of As Hamilton Twists and Turns? Click here to go there. 

123 comments:

  1. Great way to catch up on things. Thanks. Made me chuckle

    Mr. Sarc

    ReplyDelete
  2. AnonymousJune 22, 2016

    I think The Spec should pick this up. Very light hearted and informative. Actually makes me want to follow the issue.

    ReplyDelete
  3. I have made no secret of the fact that I believe that LRT will be a mistake. It may have longer term strategic value, but municipalities are cash strapped and they cannot afford to take on something that might pan out in time. Additionally, I think their is truth in the fact that politicians will ultimately be blamed when this goes sour. A car culture is hard to kill or mitigate. And for LRT to truly make good on its promise, it has to enjoy increased uptake. I just can't see that happening. Not in Hamilton now or in the next 10 years.

    Just my opinion. I am sure I will be assailed for saying so. Seems to be the way it is if you have a counter opinion.
    Sorce

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I believe the "assailing" you reference comes from an extremely small-minuscule-segment of the discussion who seem determined to undermine the pro LRT side with insulting, disrespectful rhetoric which is clearly galvanizing the anti LRT camp. Some believe if they were not invited to the party, then the party never happened.

      If Fred had declared unequivocally during the election "I fully support LRT" we would not be having this conversation. A "vision" that can not be communicated clearly and effectively is doomed. As it should be. Predicated on a foundation of baloney and "I know what is best and I intend to shove it down your throat" Not in this City, and least not yet.

      Delete
  4. AnonymousJune 22, 2016

    I think Mayor Fred is making a mistake. I think all these pressure tactics cheapens the effort and reeks of weakness.

    ReplyDelete
  5. love the fade to black images. ROTFL.

    ReplyDelete
  6. AnonymousJune 22, 2016

    "..which is clearly galvanizing the anti LRT camp" yea i saw the anti lrt group last night on.. no wait,there is no anti lrt group. there is that anti lrt website thats... no website either? oh. how about a popular petition of anti lrt business and people... oh right, none of that either. who habe the anti lrt gang rallied around? no one? oh. you mean even though sorce and jim say the majority of hamiltonians are wildly opposed to lrt, there is NO anti lrt work being done at all? just random comments on media message boards and angry letters to the spec? with the cast majority of hamiltonians opposed to lrt you would think SOMEONE would have done SOMETHING. no. nothing. not a peep.

    ReplyDelete
  7. AnonymousJune 22, 2016

    bob bratina..."declined to sign the letter electing not to influence council's decision" oh. yet he signed a letter to the spec as "Bob Bratina, Liberal MP, Hamilton East-Stoney Creek". heres how someone thats really interested in being neutral behaves" Sweet, Conservative MP for Flamborough-Glanbrook, didn't sign because he doesn't believe in commenting on political issues Ottawa has no direct involvement with."That's just the way I've been since I was elected and I just didn't see any reason to change at this time." Sweet says he's not passing judgment on other MPs; it's a question of personal principles for him. now thats TRUE class.

    ReplyDelete
  8. AnonymousJune 22, 2016

    Here's a thought experiment: Provincial and federal governments are backing sustainable transportation infrastructure, with dollars and with words. What if the decision to decline an infrastructure investment has long-term repercussions on future investments? Is it possible that branding Hamilton "The Status Quo City" will come back to haunt us? Backbencher Bratina, once a GO Transit board member, loves his trains. Would be funny to see the pledge of RER retreat if LRT is declined. Council is weird: clamour for investment from senior government, then cower when they make good.

    ReplyDelete
  9. Seriously most people are not organized but still have an opinion. You continue to do exactly as JG suggests. Insults generally dont bring people to your cause

    ReplyDelete
  10. AnonymousJune 22, 2016

    "Seriously most people are not organized but still have an opinion" i agree. but you and others keep claiming over and over that a majority of hamiltonians reject lrt. yet you show zero evidence of this. zero. you and others keep saying over and over again there is a massive groundswell of passionate opposition to lrt. yet you show zero evidence of this. zero. 300 local business and civic organizations support lrt. these include business and merchants of every description from every part of the city. vocally and with gusto. 7 past and present mps and mpps support lrt publicly. 7 past mayor and regional chairs support lrt. there have been five local organizations dedicated to lrt with tens of thousands of active members from all walks of life and every part of hamilton supporting lrt with blood sweat treasure and tears. and what has the anti lrt camp done? nothing. not a thing. nada. zip zilch. you amd your cohorts keep saying this is the biggest mistake hamilton will ever make. you amd your cohorts keep saying this is will ruin hamilton. but you and the others are doing nothing. why is that? if the sky is falling you should be handing out umbrellas to your fellow citizens not locking yourself behind doors and banging away at the board.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. The evidence is everywhere. Just talk to any hamiltonian that doesn't frequent Raise the Hammer or who doesn't base their lives on LRT. Everyone I talk to tells me that they think it's a mistake and that the city should give it up. I also believe that there will be a political price to pay if it proceeds.

      In terms of the anonymous person who keeps rebutting and putting up countless links (perhaps I will call him Mr. Link), you should watch this:

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57dzaMaouXA

      Sometimes people have conversations and better understand each other rather than rely on links, hashtags and whatnot.
      Sorce

      Delete
    2. AnonymousJune 22, 2016

      when people have evidence to back up their views and produce it we will take their opinions into consideration. when people keep saying "i dont need facts or proof to back up my opinions cuz the people i talk to agree with me" we will not take their opinions into consideration. end of story.

      Delete
    3. #Hashtag Sad
      Hashtag#Sorce

      Delete
    4. AnonymousJune 26, 2016

      That you mistake hashtags for URLs speaks volumes.

      Delete
  11. AnonymousJune 22, 2016

    "You continue to do exactly as JG suggests. Insults generally dont bring people to your cause" show me on this page where i used and insult or was rude to someone?

    ReplyDelete
  12. AnonymousJune 22, 2016

    "Insults generally dont bring people to your cause.." im not trying to bring anymore people to our cause. no one brings anyone to their cause by posting on media sites. the total lack of any organized opposition to the lrt is proof of that.

    ReplyDelete
  13. Alright lets settle it once and for all. No ambiguities spin or deceptions. Plebiscite, but then I am sure you make some excuse why guesswork is better than a vote

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. AnonymousJune 22, 2016

      lets explore the idea of a plebiscite. work out a few details. first question who composes the question on the ballot?

      Delete
    2. AnonymousJune 22, 2016

      and where exactly in my above comments did i insult anybody?

      Delete
    3. I have no idea if you did or not

      Delete
    4. Okay. I'm up late this evening, so i will compose the ballot question. Here it goes:

      Hamilton has been earmarked to receive 1 Billion dollars from the provincial government to built a Light Rail system whose first phase will run from ____________ to ______ and _______.

      Do you support the idea of building a light rail system in Hamilton, as described?

      Yes

      No

      Mark only one response with an X.

      (* Note- if you mark No, you may be hunted down by the LRT lobby)
      Sorce

      Delete
    5. AnonymousJune 23, 2016

      good question. im for it. go ahead. start the petition or website or whatever. you have my best wishes and maybe some support as well. let me know when you start.

      Delete
    6. AnonymousJune 23, 2016

      ok. you call city halls 1 800 number for citizens requesting million dollar referendums, tell them the question you want, the date you want the vote. then when city council follows your request/demand for an lrt referendum i will vote "Yes for LRT"

      Delete
    7. That's why we have council who is clearly divided on the merits of the project. Making our councillors aware is why it's not smooth sailing. Refusing request for a vote is simply obstructionist. I know that opposing something seems obstructionist but what you are obstructing is allowing people to voice their opinions.

      Delete
    8. AnonymousJune 23, 2016

      this is everday politics in the big city allan. under your math we would be having referendums for every city issue with unanimous support from council.
      council is not "clearly divided". thats your version. heres the current status. some councillors support lrt enthusiastically and with vigor. councillors a.johnson, farr,green,merulla,ferguson and eisenberger. some support it with some minor reservations. councillors van derbeek,jackson,pasuta. some councillors support it but with one or two serious concerns. councillors patridge, pearson, conley, skelly. then there is one that says he could possibly support it but with further assurances and some major changes and some further study. terry whitehead. then theres one councillor that says no lrt under any circumstances (chad collins). so six of the sixteen councillors are lrt boosters, yes votes all the way, they say take the money now build tommorrow. three of them say yes but with tweeks. four of them say yes but have serious concerns. one says maybe with major conditions. one says no way. you think this council is divided? har dee har har.

      Delete
    9. AnonymousJune 23, 2016

      What's the threshold for a referendum call? Does the expansion of Taro Dump merit a referendum? Redefinition of the greenbelt? Ward boundaries? Concentration of residential care facilities? School closures? Police budgets? And what point do those elected to represent the people of Hamilton become redundant? Why not just crowdsource municipal policymaking to the blogosphere or a Cable 14 call-in show or bundle it with The O Show?

      Delete
    10. AnonymousJune 23, 2016

      "Why not just crowdsource municipal policymaking to the blogosphere or a Cable 14 call-in show or bundle it with The O Show?" that is perfect. that encapsulates more than a few commenters here would love that. this is a role that councillor skelly would suit perfectly.

      Delete
    11. AnonymousJune 23, 2016

      thats not a very mature attitude allan. a bit schoolyard. tell us what civic initiatives you would or wouldnt support a referendum on. i will put it language you used: i daru you. no, i double dare you.

      Delete
    12. You get what you give. Completely refusal to listen is what you do.

      Delete
  14. Sorry. I assumed that you knew how a referendum works.
    Sorce

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. AnonymousJune 23, 2016

      oh i see. you think that the city should hold a referendum cuz YOU say so. i thought you i knew how referendum work. its about the will of the citiens. once the citizens of a municipality show enough popular support FOR an idea, city council can start the PROCESS for referendum. or, if the citizens of a municipality show that they are upset or angry enough about an issue they want changed, city council can start the PROCESS for a referendum. has the anti lrt gang meet either of these criteria? no. of course they havent. what have they done. nothing. you really thought hamilton was going to spend a million dollars on a referendum cause YOU say so? i cant deal with people that dont understand how politics work.

      Delete
  15. theres lots of support for holding a referendum. Are you afraid of the result or just contrarian

    ReplyDelete
  16. AnonymousJune 23, 2016

    "theres lots of support for holding a referendum... produce one piece of evidence or proof of your statement. quit speculating. lots of support with you and your friends, maybe. maybe not. we will never know. cause a referendum would take effort.

    ReplyDelete
  17. AnonymousJune 23, 2016

    "Facts don’t necessarily have the power to change our minds. In fact, quite the opposite. In a series of studies in 2005 and 2006, researchers at the University of Michigan found that when misinformed people, particularly political partisans, were exposed to corrected facts in news stories, they rarely changed their minds. In fact, they often became even more strongly set in their beliefs. Facts, they found, were not curing misinformation. Like an underpowered antibiotic, facts could actually make misinformation even stronger.

    This bodes ill for a democracy, because most voters — the people making decisions about how the country runs — aren’t blank slates. They already have beliefs, and a set of facts lodged in their minds. The problem is that sometimes the things they think they know are objectively, provably false. And in the presence of the correct information, such people react very, very differently than the merely uninformed. Instead of changing their minds to reflect the correct information, they can entrench themselves even deeper."

    http://archive.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2010/07/11/how_facts_backfire/

    Smithee

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. AnonymousJune 25, 2016

      bravo smithee. great find. the whole piece was fascinating and really helped me understand the anti lrt folk. thanks again.

      Delete
    2. AnonymousJuly 04, 2016

      "Modern truth is not just outpaced by fiction, it can be bypassed altogether as part of a sound political strategy or as a central requirement of a media business plan. In an illuminating exchange with the Guardian last week, Arron Banks, the wealthy donor partly responsible for the Brexit campaign, explained leave’s media strategy thus: “The remain campaign featured fact, fact, fact, fact, fact. It just doesn’t work. You have got to connect with people emotionally. It’s the Trump success.”

      The Washington DC strategy company Goddard Gunster told the Brexit organisers that “the facts don’t work”, which was, somewhat ironically in this case, the truth."

      https://www.theguardian.com/media/2016/jul/03/facebook-bubble-brexit-filter

      Smithee

      Delete
  18. So you won't believe unless there's a vote but we can't have a vote unless you believe. Got it

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. AnonymousJune 23, 2016

      whats council to think again? 300 business and organizations and groups representing 100,000s of citizens have vocally endorsed lrt whole heart. fourteen executive level governors past and present vocally support lrt with a vigorous council endorsement. these people took time and effort out of their lives to make their views known. if you want to be taken seriously, you will have to do something to EARN the right. you really think you and your pals banging away at the keyboards will influence council? you think you deserve say or influence or consideration? my lord.

      Delete
    2. So you refuse to listen

      Delete
    3. AnonymousJune 24, 2016

      there is nothing to listen to. thats the sounds of silence you hear from your side allan. you and the other anti lrt cohorts make the sound of one hand clapping.

      Delete
  19. the fact that we are having this conversation to accept the $1B proves that many councillors are unsure and are hearing it from constituents

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. AnonymousJune 23, 2016

      to have one million dollars of our tax money spent on YOUR ISSUES is a new level of hubris, even for you. like i say, since you think lrt will be the worst thing for hamilton ever, WHAT has allan taylor DONE? nothing. nada. zilch. the pro lrt side is SOOOOOO grateful to you and your fellow anti lrt "activists". by doing nothing you have made it much easier to get the lrt approved funded, and soon to be built.

      Delete
    2. continue whistling through the graveyard, whatever it takes to get you home with dry shorts.

      Delete
    3. AnonymousJune 23, 2016

      you and your cohorts keep saying the pro lrt people are running scared. that opposition is growing to the lrt daily. that very soon a critical mass of angry and feed up citizens are going to let council know they will be voted out if they support lrt. you guys have been saying that since day one. whens that going to happen. even here. why arent there more anti lrt people here? why isnt that number growing? why isnt the voice of the anti lrt citizenry gathering momentum? we all know why. cause its a small but vocal group with very little real support.

      Delete
  20. Insults just like Jim Graham says do the opposite of galvanizing support

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. AnonymousJune 25, 2016

      the anti lrt side couldnt galvanize itself out of a wet paper bag. and in regards to the side your not on? we have 100,00s of individual supporters, hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of business's, churchs, schools, political executives, builders, planners, neighborhood associations, professional associations, unions and 14 members of a 16 member city council. whose support do you think WE need? your? jims? sorce? we arent expecting waiting anticipating or considering you or your cohorts in anyway shape or fashion. the city is moving on. the world s moving on. we are moving on. goodbye.

      Delete
  21. AnonymousJune 23, 2016

    "The Hamilton Tiger-Cats say they want LRT"
    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/news/ticats-lrt-1.3649991 cool.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. and when they begin using Go Transit to get to the Argo games their position will have some merit

      Delete
    2. AnonymousJune 24, 2016

      ?????

      Delete
    3. the Cats are shown arriving for their recent exhibition game against the Argo's in a convoy of SUV's, Ms. Kathy sweeps into town for a recent funding announcement in a stretch limo with police escort. Have you ever encountered Mayor Fred using rapid transit? McMeekin? Wade? DiIanni. Yet they all know what is best for you and I? Do as I say

      Delete
    4. AnonymousJune 25, 2016

      so because the ticats dont use public transit their views on public transit should be ignored is what youre saying.

      Delete
    5. correct, completely irrelevant

      Delete
    6. AnonymousJune 26, 2016

      ok. lets follow your reasoning. the ticats dont take public transit so their views on public transit are irrelevant. right? ok. you dont take public transit. allan taylor doesnt take public transit. sorce doesnt take public transit. therefore, by your reasoning, you three are irrelevant to any discussion about public transit.

      Delete
    7. I take public transit regularly on the King route

      Delete
    8. AnonymousJune 29, 2016

      dont believe you.

      Delete
  22. A referendum need not be set based on lobby groups or activists. Ordinarily, a referendum is set when the government of the day believes that there is an issue that it should go to the people on, en masse. Britain is a good example with the EU issue. ''

    So, all this malarky about forming a lobby group of sorts to get a referendum happening, is just that- malarky.

    Why do you fear a referendum? #Hashtag desperate
    Sorce

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. AnonymousJune 24, 2016

      The UK's EU referendum arguably reflects more about the age of voters and the growing xenophobia sweeping the West than it does any mature and informed deliberation about the stakes of Brexit. People of advanced age, fearful of change, clinging to narrow interests in the face of a rapidly changing world have rarely had a salutory effect on long-range planning. But as Andrew Dreschel points out today, council loves to outsource responsibility and decisionmaking, so who knows. Nice work if you can get it.

      Delete
    2. AnonymousJune 25, 2016

      As Britain awoke on Friday to the news that it had voted in favor of withdrawing from the European Union, voters were introduced to their new reality with a stunning admission from Nigel Farage, the pro-Brexit advocate who leads the U.K. Independence Party. Farage said that the Vote Leave campaign's signature pledge—that leaving the European Union would allow for £350 million to be spent on the U.K.'s National Health Service—was a "mistake."

      Farage's mea culpa was made during an appearance on Good Morning Britain, where he was asked if he could continue supporting that promise after the campaign to extract the United Kingdom from the European Union had succeeded.

      "No I can't, and I would have never made that claim," Farage said. "It was one of the mistakes I think the 'leave' campaign made"

      When pressed by Good Morning Britain's Susanna Reid, who said that 17 million people had voted to leave the EU partly on that bold promise, Farage repeatedly stalled, as he attempted to disavow the campaign pledge.

      http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2016/06/nigel-farage-admits-his-bold-brexit-claim-was-mistake

      Delete
    3. AnonymousJune 25, 2016

      Remain voters are voicing their outrage amid claims by some people who voted for a Brexit that they regret their decision.

      Electoral services workers have reported calls from people asking if they could change their decision after Friday’s result became clear, while some publicly admitted they intended to use a “protest vote” in the belief the UK was certain to remain in the European Union.

      The anxiety – dubbed “Bregret” – emerged as the value of the pound tumbled and markets crashed, while somefelt betrayed by Nigel Farage’s admission that a Vote Leave poster pledging to spend millions of pounds supposedly given to the EU on the NHS was a “mistake”.

      Mandy Suthi, a student who voted to leave, told ITV News she would tick the Remain box if she had a second chance and said her parents and siblings also regretted their choice.

      “I would go back to the polling station and vote to stay, simply because this morning the reality is kicking in,” she said.

      “I wish we had the opportunity to vote again,” she added, saying she was “very disappointed”.

      Khembe Gibbons, a lifeguard from Bury St Edmunds in Suffolk, also said she had regrets about her decision after Mr Farage said he could not guarantee NHS funding.

      "We've left the EU, David Cameron's resigned, we're left with Boris, and Nigel has just basically given away that the NHS claim was a lie,” she wrote.

      "I personally voted leave believing these lies, and I regret it more than anything, I feel genuinely robbed of my vote."

      http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-anger-bregret-leave-voters-protest-vote-thought-uk-stay-in-eu-remain-win-a7102516.html

      Delete
    4. AnonymousJune 25, 2016

      A quick note on the first three tragedies. Firstly, it was the working classes who voted for us to leave because they were economically disregarded, and it is they who will suffer the most in the short term. They have merely swapped one distant and unreachable elite for another.
      Secondly, the younger generation has lost the right to live and work in 27 other countries. We will never know the full extent of the lost opportunities, friendships, marriages and experiences we will be denied. Freedom of movement was taken away by our parents, uncles, and grandparents in a parting blow to a generation that was already drowning in the debts of our predecessors.
      Thirdly and perhaps most significantly, we now live in a post-factual democracy. When the facts met the myths they were as useless as bullets bouncing off the bodies of aliens in a HG Wells novel. When Michael Gove said, ‘The British people are sick of experts,’ he was right. But can anybody tell me the last time a prevailing culture of anti-intellectualism has led to anything other than bigotry?

      https://next.ft.com/content/f4dcdf62-399d-11e6-9a05-82a9b15a8ee7

      Delete
  23. AnonymousJune 23, 2016

    "Ordinarily, a referendum is set when the government of the day believes that there is an issue that it should go to the people on, en masse." sometimes the government leads the way on referendum. but only if there is compelling evidence of popular support for a referendum. right now there is zero.nada.zilch evidence for popular support for an anti lrt referendum. so until some anti lrt people show council that a decent amount of the populace is clamouring for an lrt referendum there will be no lrt referendum. and no sorce, no city council member is going to initiate a million dollar vote cause of thumbs down/thumbs up on a comment board. i know you this upsets you, but policy isnt done by doing a tally of like/dislike from the boards.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. AnonymousJune 24, 2016

      "sometimes the government leads the way on referendum. but only if there is compelling evidence of popular support for a referendum"

      Untrue. the government can call a referendum at any time it believes that such an instrument would assist it in making a decision.

      Delete
    2. AnonymousJune 24, 2016

      "the government can call a referendum at any time it believes that such an instrument would assist it in making a decision" true. but if the government doesnt need assistance in making a decision, a referendum is pointless. first, we have already accepted the cash and signed a moa. hamilton city council has voted yes three times for lrt. there has never been a vote where council rejected the lrt money from the province. hamilton city council presently has 14 of 16 councillors say that right this very minute or after some clarifications or changes or modifications or negotiations or accommodations they will vote yes for lrt. terry whtehead says maybe but only with a long list of conditions. chad collins says no outright. so, the decisions are made. thanks again.

      Delete
  24. AnonymousJune 23, 2016

    "So, all this malarky about forming a lobby group of sorts to get a referendum happening, is just that- malarky" cant you run off some petitions? you and allan and jim say EVERY SINGLE person you talk to all over town hates lrt passionately. shouldnt it be easy to get a thousand signature demanding a referendum?

    ReplyDelete
  25. AnonymousJune 23, 2016

    jim allan and sorce want hamilton council that has 15 councillors of 16 that say they accept the provincial lrt money to spend one million dollars that is %100 hamilton taxpayer money so we can have a referendum on whether we should accept the money they unanimously requested. up to speed yet.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Well, since Mr. Link insists on speaking for me, which he does very poorly, perhaps I can speak for him. Mr. Link seems to be spend a lot of time by his keyboard, just waiting for the next comment to go up against LRT. Somehow he believes that he he swats all the flies, the poop won't smell. You could put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig.
      LRT RIP.

      To City councilors, you know fair well that thee is a little voice ion your head saying- be careful. This could be a huge mistake. It could be the tail wagging the dog. Listen to that voice. It's never wrong.
      Sorce

      Delete
    2. AnonymousJune 24, 2016

      When the debate about $1B in infrastructure that will last for 30-50 years comes down to complaints about short-term traffic and construction inconvenience -- often from people who also proudly admit to never going below the mountain brow -- that is the tail wagging the dog. When people claim that not knowing fare levels eight years' hence utterly undermines the case for LRT, that's the tail wagging the dog. And when politicians like Clr Skelly start making stands against LRT while admitting that they have not looked to eight years' worth of studies and reports (some from the City itself) for answers, that's just profoundly cynical and irresponsible politicking.

      Smithee

      Delete
    3. AnonymousJune 25, 2016

      i could swat flies like you allan and jim all day all night and not break a sweat. and dont worry about the smell. im getting used to the constant and ever growing smell of defeat wafting over from your chums and the rest of the anti lrt crowd. toodles.

      Delete
  26. Sylvia (the Hockey Mom)June 24, 2016

    A referendum would be a very good thing to do. i know everyone along where I live would vote No to LRT. Most of us are sick of hearing about it.

    Sylvia (The Hockey Mom)

    ReplyDelete
  27. a quick summary of the "leadership" on the pro LRT camp. First we get Mayor Fred, who was shrewd enough to realize that honestly revealing his intentions-his "vision"-on the file during the election was tantamount to political suicide. A dishonest schemer.

    Next we get a "journalist" from RTH who has allowed his unreasonable, irrational fears to be the impetus for his advocacy. "I get anxious at the sight of my car" is a statement he clearly regrets as it was penetrating and revealing. As fragile and insecure an individual as I have ever encountered.

    and of course we get orangemike as an added bonus.55 comments-by my count at least 20 from him-and he rails about others pounding the keyboard. Compulsively obsessed.

    I do not believe any of these have any interest in serving the community. For them, this is all about power, and their yearning to exert influence over others,to bring some sense of meaning or purpose to an otherwise bleak existence. The frustration all 3 have demonstrated when they do not get their way is remarkably consistent.

    So the referendum question is not about cost-1/10th of 1% of the build price?-the fact is they could care less what others think or feel.Sociopaths on parade?

    ReplyDelete
  28. AnonymousJune 24, 2016

    No offense to Mayor Fred, but if he declared that implementing LRT was his vision, he would not be mayor. I believe the LRT issue will be the single issue that will oust councilors from their seats.

    ReplyDelete
  29. AnonymousJune 24, 2016

    Should long-term infrastructure planning with the potential to transform the city's economy be put to a binary vote where there is no guarantee that the electorate has an informed perspective on such matters? Yes/No

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. AnonymousJune 24, 2016

      Catch 22. This applies to all roadwork, sewer work, sidewalks, bike lanes, etc. If council is that useless, let's abolish council, hand the power to staff and make all budgets subject to a multiple choice input.

      Delete
    2. yes, with the proviso that advocates have had plenty of opportunity to educate the electorate as have opponents. Its a sign of arrogance and disrespect to say that only advocates in favour are capable of deciding

      Delete
    3. AnonymousJune 25, 2016

      That's not the contention here at all: It's that elected representatives, in consultation with City staff, senior government officials, consultants, and their consitituents, should be entrusted to make informed decisions about City policy, however they decide. I find the drumbeat for referenda depressing as hell because it speaks to an electorate that is unwilling to engage in city-building and civic dialogue aside from a scribble on a scrap of paper once every four years.

      Delete
    4. AnonymousJune 26, 2016

      "yes, with the proviso that...." see how tricky the pro referendum side is? at first, its a simple question put to the electorate. now, the "proviso's" start. the pro referendum will move the goal post with proviso after proviso. remember, first its, "a simple question", next its condition that proviso this but only if this happens.

      Delete
  30. Yes because the electorate is well informed

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. AnonymousJune 26, 2016

      Which is, I guess, why two-thirds of them can't be arsed to vote.

      Delete
  31. AnonymousJune 24, 2016

    Let's face it. If LRT was a slam dunk, we would not be talking about it. It's not too late to turn back. @ Sam Merulla- you're not getting my vote. LRT is a waste.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I wont vote for my counciler if she votes for LRT.

      Mr. Sarc

      Delete
  32. AnonymousJune 25, 2016

    LRT is a downtown thing. Noone I know gives a rat's @ss about it anywhere outside of the down there. So, a lot of aldermen wont be getting votes

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. AnonymousJune 25, 2016

      ancaster community council endorses lrt
      lakewood beach community council endorses lrt
      rolston neighbourhood association endorses lrt
      these groups are clearly outside od downtown. these are just a few. there are dozens and dozens and dozens of other groups outside of "the down there' that support and endorse lrt.

      Delete
    2. AnonymousJune 25, 2016

      We should have a referendum. It is a big issue and lets not forget the dismal turn out at the polls in the last municipal election. Noone can claim that those elected truly represent the masses. I know it is the electorate's fault for not voting- shame on them. But it doesn't solve the fact that a referendum should be held. If a referendum were held, I think lRT would die immediately

      Delete
    3. AnonymousJune 26, 2016

      "Anti-LRT" is often a surrogate for "anti-amalgamation" IMO.

      Delete
    4. AnonymousJune 26, 2016

      I can see a referendum being useful. Provide each with a pamphlet that lists the options and the top pros and cons of each. Put up a website where people can get more detailed info- rapid ready report, other studies etc,. Provide the email or phone of their councilor to get the view if desired, and have the vote. If anyone reists this, it may because they are threatened by the outcome. That alone, should tell councillors something.

      Delete
    5. AnonymousJune 26, 2016

      "Anti-LRT" is often a surrogate for "anti-amalgamation" exactly. flimflamborough wants its casino and fire truck back so theyre throwing a fit.

      Delete
    6. AnonymousJune 26, 2016

      Just 16% of eligible voters elected Larry DiIanni mayor. Just 15% of eligible voters elected Bob Bratina mayor. And no councillor has secured the support of even a third of voters in the last three municipal elections. If you want to disavow our municipal leaders, have at it. What's your imagined alternative?

      Delete
    7. AnonymousJune 26, 2016

      "It is a big issue and lets not forget the dismal turn out at the polls in the last municipal election. Noone can claim that those elected truly represent the masses" yet you think these same no show voters will vote on a lrt referendum? and like i posted previous, the pro lrt vote could win and election and you and the rest would find away to discount the results. there would be some cry of foul or unfair.

      Delete
    8. AnonymousJune 28, 2016

      There's the rub: Bratina ran on an anti-amalgamation ticket (platform schmatform — "Make Hamilton Great Again" was his basic non-specific promise), and yet he mobilized a smaller share of the electorate than his predecessor.

      Delete
  33. I like the lyric of the moment. Like a river that dont know where its flowing I took a wrong turn and I just kept going.

    Sounds like LRT.

    ReplyDelete
  34. AnonymousJune 26, 2016

    what happens if the "no lrt" side wins a referendum with 51% but only 25% of the people vote? would allan jim and sorce accept that result? darn skippy! westcliff mall foddcourt would echo with rings of "democracy in action!" now reverse it. the "yes lrt " side wins the referendum, with 51% of the vote, and 50% of the city votes. will the boys accept this result? they will not. they will say only 25.5% of the city wants lrt, and the remaining 75% is the "silent anti lrt majority".

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. why are you so fixated on what allan jim and sorce would do? darn skippy indeed. Kreskin the obnoxious

      Delete
    2. AnonymousJune 28, 2016

      "why are you so fixated on what allan jim and sorce would do?" in my opinion, collectively you three make the least amount of sense of almost anyone i have heard on the subject of public transportation in general and lrt in particular. so this makes you logical and easy targets.

      Delete
    3. I believe it's because you are too much of a coward

      Delete
    4. In terms of why Mr. Link has a fixation with me- well, what can i say, I have many fans.

      Delete
    5. the 'oracle' is fixated on the illogical and obsessed with the irrelevant. Nice resume

      Delete
  35. AnonymousJune 26, 2016

    yesterday i actually heard someone say "when the lrt referendum vote comes, wards outside the lrt corridor should get two votes for every one vote the people in the corridor wards get" the reasons given were even more foolish and silly than the statement. buts its an example of the sentiment of some on the pro referendum side.

    ReplyDelete
  36. WEST HARBOUR RESIDENTJune 26, 2016

    Again, it's very difficult to follow ANYTHING with all of the 'anonymous' people. For the love of Pete, just find some sort of moniker and use it! It truly isn't that challenging or difficult, and it would really assist me in trying to follow things!

    Also, you really, really lose any and all of your argument when you can't identify yourself (with me, anyway).

    And, for the record, I'm a 'NO' for the LRT!

    Freddy is at it again...Why should anyone be surprised at the things this man comes up with?

    And I do have a brain and certainly do NOT require politicians to tell me 'what's good' for me!

    ReplyDelete
  37. AnonymousJune 27, 2016

    Short version:
    • 75% of local MPs/MPPs support the LRT investment.
    • 90% of The Hamiltonian’s Virtual Panellists support the LRT investment

    In related news:
    • 87.5% of council reaffirmed council’s position that LRT in the McMaster to Eastgate corridor is the preferred option.
    • 93.75% of council voted in support of the Memorandum of Agreement with Metrolinx

    Smithee

    ReplyDelete
  38. And yet everyone in favour is unwilling to put it to a vote

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. AnonymousJune 27, 2016

      im in favour of the lrt and im in favour of a vote. i will show up and vote yes for lrt anytime there is one.

      Delete
    2. but my vote will be rendered irrelevant because I failed to produce identification

      Delete
    3. AnonymousJune 28, 2016

      i identify myself under the appropriate circumstances. like when voting yes in the lrt referendum that will never ever happen.

      Delete
    4. here is my Alfred E Neuman drivers license, my Batman health card, my membership card for the Hamilton Institute........denied?

      Delete
  39. I stand by my convictions unlike someone who refuses to

    ReplyDelete
  40. "Municipalities are already struggling to pick up the year-to-year operational costs" for transit, Miasek told a crowd of about 40 people at the West Harbour Hub Thursday evening.

    "While transportation projects get funding from all three levels of government, municipalities are often forced to foot the bill themselves when it comes to maintenance and operation, said Miasek."

    Here's a link for Mr. Link http://www.thespec.com/news-story/6738372-funding-hamilton-transportation-operations-will-be-pricey/

    I am amazed the spec started reporting the other side of the ugly LRT baby.
    Sorce

    P.S,. In terms of why Mr. Link has a fixation with me- well, what can i say, I have many fans.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. AnonymousJune 29, 2016

      In the interests of clarity, the above Spec story is selective in its embrace of facts. Whatever mode is decided upon for the Main-King-Queenston corridor, this much is abundantly clear: It has yet to be determined who would end up paying for operations, maintenance or both. The development model is determined before the procurement phase is entered and the RFP is issued — which, according to a post on The Hamiltonian six months ago, would be December 2016.

      http://www.thehamiltonian.net/2016/01/lrt-project-plan-timelines-for-hamilton.html

      Miasek's observation about cost hinges on the word "often." It is certainly true that the HSR's O&M is the City's responsibility, as it is true for conventional transit in every municipality in the province. It is equally true that most of Metrolinx's recent LRT developments have made a non-municipal contractor responsible for maintenance. (In Waterloo, both O&M are the responsibility of Keolis.) It will likely come down to a trade-off: Council's preference is to pay nothing toward $1B in rapid transit infrastructure, and to rid itself of concerns about O&M costs over the next 30-50 years. It may well be able to do so, but we won't know either way until the end of the year.

      Whatever the outcome of rapid transit procurement negotiations, Miasek is correct to point out that the City of Hamilton will still have to pay the full cost of running the HSR, as it has always done. There is no magic bullet for this, much as Council wishes there were.

      Delete
    2. AnonymousJune 29, 2016

      Incidentally, if you're into fine print, the province's gas tax revenue agreement with municipalities can also be revoked at any time, with 60 days' written notice.

      Delete
  41. Hamiltonian AdminJune 29, 2016

    Please note: We have been receiving many posts that are simply meant to antagonize and contribute nothing to the topic. We are considering shutting down comments or banning certain people. Please assist us by abiding by not putting us in this position. It takes a lot of time and effort to manage this situation and is unfair to our staff.

    ReplyDelete
  42. AnonymousJune 29, 2016

    this is a site committed to providing a venue for opposing views and commentary on a wide variety of subjects. It has been reduced to a site for individuals to "target" competing views with slander, insults, and disrespect, which left unchecked only inspires a desire to retaliate in kind, reduced to the lowest common denominator. Ban offenders

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Hamiltonian AdminJune 29, 2016

      Thank-you for your suggestion. Although we do not agree that the site has been reduced to that, we do agree with the concerns you have expressed. We have received instruction to not allow any comments that have a hint or shade of antagonistic behaviour. So, those who are tainting their comments as such, please do not waste your time or ours.

      This site is run as a service to our community and noone here is paid. Please respect our efforts.

      To those who have and do, a big thank-you

      Delete
    2. I think that is a fair request.
      Sorce

      Delete
    3. I also think that is a fair request

      Delete
  43. At current expansion rates, Move the GTHA estimates operation costs of the rapid transit network would cost municipalities $1.6 billion per year by 2022. By 2032 that number would balloon to $3.8 billion per year.

    By 2042, municipalities will need to source $78 billion cumulatively to foot the bill.

    "We're going to need a revenue source that starts small but grows rapidly," he said. "The sad news is no governments have made commitments."

    This is a very crucial consideration when debating LRT. It will be unaffordable and "a revenue source that starts small but grows rapidly" is nowhere in sight.

    As I say, LRT will be the issue that finally oustes councillors from their positions. Whitehead and Collins may be the only ones who survive.
    Sorce

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. AnonymousJune 29, 2016

      ok. yo say you favour brt and extra bus's over lrt. what is the hamilton taxpayers estimated annual cost to maintain the existing hsr bus fleet AND the new brt system AND the extra bus's you favour? what is the hamilton taxpayers estimated annual cost to maintain the existing hsr bus fleet AND the lrt? the answers are known. one option is less expensive. have you compared the two?

      Delete
  44. AnonymousJuly 30, 2016

    "...we find Mayor Eisenberger reaching out to MPs and MPPs, unleashing a letter of support for LRT and asking them to endorse it. And while some took the bait and provided a strong endorsement, others such as MP and former Mayor Bob Bratina - who in the past appeared to have serious reservations about LRT as it is presently envisioned, according to an aid, declined to sign the letter electing not to influence council's decision."

    January 26, 2016: “Liberals want to approach solving Hamilton’s infrastructure and social problems by bringing together all elected officials from all three levels of government. We call it team Hamilton.”

    http://bayobserver.ca/civility-bob-bratinas-maiden-speech-in-the-house-of-commons/

    ReplyDelete

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