Sunday, April 23, 2017

LRT-The Best Thing Since Sliced Bread?

There is no doubt that ailing infrastructure is a real problem for many municipalities.  However, attaching the problem to LRT may result in casting LRT as a misdirected solution. Hamilton is attempting to find the right transit solution for its immediate and future needs. If it proceeds with LRT as its choice, the fact that it will involve access to and replacement of a selected 11km stretch of infrastructure is incidental.

While allowing that some incidental benefits would result, by virtue of access and repair/replacement/and enhancement (in some cases) of infrastructure and technological features, the thirst to address these issues which, arguably should have been done as part of good statescraft and governance, may be having the adverse affect of sending LRT adrift.

As part of Tuesday's meeting, a certain degree of strain was apparent in efforts to cast LRT as an opportunity for replacing and upgrading underground pipes, allowing for upgrades in utility technologies and even a reference to the mitigation of storms caused by climate change. Staff did an excellent job of responding forthrightly to questions concerning auxiliary benefits a LRT implementation could offer.

For example, staff indicated that the pipes along the stretch were in pretty good shape and one staffer stated that they were 20 years in, on a 100 hundred year life expectancy. Having said that, the staffer also allowed for the opportunity of upgrading the pipe to a bigger capacity.

And while we would not dismiss that this type of implementation, based on its degree of  penetration of existing infrastructure, can provide for auxiliary benefits albeit confined to an 11km stretch that may, in some cases, have a greater city wide impact (but not necessarily the case in all instances), treating LRT as salvific in this context, can serve to make people wonder about whether we are considering its implementation for the right reasons.

Hamilton is attempting to find the right transit solution for its immediate and future needs. We sincerely hope that it finds the right transit solution for its immediate and future needs.

The Hamiltonian


  1. I feel another episode of As Hamilton Twists coming ;-)


  2. So, I am just about to go to bed and I see this notice that reads "LRT-The Best Thing Since Sliced Bread" and I immediately think-= has The hamiltonian lost its mind? Has it gone to the dark side?

    Then i read the article and realize that you folks are still the most trusted source on this topic. I've read your two other competitors and they are so steeped in bias, I can't read them any more.

    I admit, you bated me on this. i had to check it out. How clever. Goodnight.

  3. Ancaster ManApril 19, 2017

    They did it to themselves. They got diverted into this silly argument about infrastructure deficit. It is silly because of this-

    1st, it undermines the LRT argument and makes it look like just a cover for another agenda

    2nd- i want to know how these conselors who have been in office for many terms - Eisenberger, Whitehead, Pearson, Merulla, Jackson- how come they did not solve this infrastructure deficit. God knows they have had a LOT of time- too much time.

    I am so annoyed and disappointed in all of them. i watched most of it. Hours I'll never get back. We need to do something about these life time poiliticians who don't do anythign about a problem and then try to solve it on the backs of other things. Sad. Very safd.

    Peeved in Ancaster

    1. Ancaster ManApril 19, 2017

      And I'll be having a talk with lloyd. What;s gotten into him?

    2. " The gang of 10" vs. "The fascist 5"
      I found it more entertaining than the hockey game.

  4. If King/Main/Queenston underground infrastructure is only 20 years old, that would mean that 22km of lower city roads were ripped up just before amalgamation. Which would explain why the roads are so smooth.


    And if that same infrastructure lasts 100 years, no roads south of Fennell will need work done for decades. That's a huge tax savings. And it frees up federal gas tax dollars for council to spend on expanding the HSR. Win-win.

    Sigma Cub

    1. first off, I need to apologize.
      In an earlier exchange respecting concerns I had for those with disabilities accessing reduced boarding points, you had suggested that "regular" buses may continue running along King.
      I thought you were kidding, turns out you were right. From Queen St continuing westerly, it appears buses will be running right behind the light rail vehicles.
      While this certainly mitigates my concerns for anyone with mobility issues living in that neighborhood (it still amounts to a serious reduction for anyone east of Queen)it only adds to my concerns respecting design efficiency.
      Buses following trains. Someone thinks this is a good idea.
      I am not sure if anyone else was watching by that point, but the look on Councilor Johnson's face was quite revealing. I am pretty sure Ryan, Graham and the orangemike have another to add to their "these are the women we hate" poster.

    2. This is about all you need to know about "slippin" jimmy graham.

      "you had suggested that "regular" buses may continue running along King.

      I thought you were kidding, turns out you were right"

      That jim graham did not know that HSR bus service will continue in on or around the LRT route is astonishing. Its been on the City of Hamilton LRT FAQ page for a long long time.


      Q. How will the LRT integrate with other transit like HSR and GO?

      A. Each end of the LRT route will have an end-of-line terminal to allow for seamless integration with other transit systems.

      and this

      Q. Will still run on the B Line when LRT is in service?

      A. The LRT will replace current HSR B-Line express service. Local bus service in and around the LRT corridor will be maintained to feed the LRT line, however parallel routes may be used in some sections. HSR is still working on these details so updates will be provided when they become available.

      Public information, known to many and anyone that wanted to know, available for a long time on the City website, yet jim graham insisted he was right. Well he was wrong.

      What other simple details about LRT have escaped jim grahams attention? Given time he may become an LRT supporter.

      Charles McGill

    3. years of construction to rip up roads to install rails.....so that buses can follow trains. I insisted such a plan would be foolish, who would do that? Who would think that is a good idea?
      Charles McGill, Allen Graham, Jim Taylor, the orangemike are all of singular opinion here, almost as if they were sharing one brain.
      You would have some work to do yet in order to get my support Charlie, start with a compelling need.

    4. At first jim graham was concerned cause he somehow got the mistaken idea that once LRT comes, the HSR was not going to service the area with bus when and where needed.

      How jim graham was mistaken is hard to understand, since this information was public, and on the City Website of LRT FAQs.

      Yet jim graham kept insisting, all evidence to the contrary that people in the area would be left high and dry cause of LRT would mean no more buss in the area.

      So first hes worried that no buss will be a huge downside to LRT.

      Then when his "concern" is addressed, he says "Who thought of that dumb idea?"

      Charles McGill

    5. Charles' reply when concerns raised respecting access for those with disabilities? "Who cares? Some will be closer, some will be further. Who cares? Walk further, take a bus in the opposite direction. Who cares about the disabled or elderly?"
      Still has not provided anything approaching an acceptable solution for anyone between the traffic circle and Queen, just flaps its gums.
      And thinks ripping up roads for years to lay rails so buses can run right behind light rail is brilliance defined. This is what little Charlie McGill and his pals were busy planning for the past decade.

    6. "You paraphrase a quote you attribute to me.

      " "Who cares? Some will be closer, some will be further. Who cares? Walk further, take a bus in the opposite direction. Who cares about the disabled or elderly?" "

      Show me where I said anything even remote to that. I never did.

      jim graham, by your own previous admission you had a total lack of knowledge about the detailed plan in place to integrate HSR and LRT. Even though the information was available online and easily found.

      "Still has not provided anything approaching an acceptable solution for anyone between the traffic circle and Queen, just flaps its gums"

      The information you still say you dont have and need me to find for you? It is also available. Go find it.

      Looking forward to where you prove I said what you said I said.

      Charles McGill

    7. forgotten Charlie? Confused? Regret revealing your true colours?
      "some will be closer, some will be further, who cares. Really?"
      None will be closer. Many will be a profound hardship. Charlie advocated for this. Charlie thinks slugging it up to Main to take a bus in the opposite direction of where you want to go is a reasonable solution. Sorry Charlie.
      Go find it.

    8. If your going to attribute a quote to me, source it, cite it. When, where, link.

      Charles McGill

    9. Dear Mr jim graham,

      I looked for that fake quote you made up then misattribute to me.

      Couldnt find it.

      Charles McGill

  5. Here is a lesson in Hamilton.Hamilton is now divided between who I call the arts and crafts people, who ironically probably never knew what its like to eat white glue in kindergarten because you happen to be hungry, and the real Hamiltonians. The real Hamiltonians are the ones who spent a lot of time waiting at bus stops in the early morning to get to the mills, or meeting in cold and lonely parking lots to car pool to work while you stood there with your lunch pail that your wife lovingly put together for you. We drank the strongest coffee we can find; not lattes. We are the ones who stood on the strike lines and got laid off and squeezed every pen and borrowed from friends and family to survive. We're the ones who will always call Burlington street, Burlington street. I know some people think we have gone out of fashion. But because of our experience, we have a nose for BS. You can throw 200 experts, three monkeys and a banana in a room but your not going to convince us that laying tracks on a road is better than investing in more and better busses. Just not gonna happen. Have some respect.


    1. Hamilton is defined by a weird mix of humblebrag and self-loathing. And it's not wearing it well.


    2. That bygone era certainly looks more golden than Hamilton’s recent economic history. This city has lagged the pack on jobs numbers that show the sobering price of the era’s single-minded focus on “unemployment stats” as evidence of economic health was, as you put it, BS. Between 2011 and 2014, Hamilton posted:

      * Steepest decline in full-time employment in the GTHA (14% drop, or 3 times the GTHA average — and 30% lower rate than neighbouring Halton Region);
      * Lowest rate of full-time employment in the GTHA (85% of average, growing at twice the GTHA average rate);
      * Highest rate of part-time employment in the GTHA (55% above GTHA average, and almost twice that of neighbouring Halton Region); and
      * Fastest growth of temporary work in the GTHA (30% over 4 years, or 3 times the GTHA average).



    3. Good ole days or bad ole days or just the ole days, those days are gone forever.

      Pretty much everyone from this age group and era is dead or dying or retired. Somehow every single one of them managed to get contacted and polled about Hamilton LRT.

      Thirty years from now when we are old and gray and complaining "You kids dont understand, when I was your age...' I hope they smile respectfully, ignore us and make their own decisions. The ones for THEIR future, OUR present and not Grampas past.

      James Taylor

    4. people smile and ignore you now-just not me! you should be more happy.

    5. Québécois pure laine.
      Old-stock Canadians.
      Real Hamiltonians.

      Those People

    6. jim graham says: "people smile and ignore you now-just not me!"

      The only time you ignore me is when I post links to facts and data that refute your comments and ask you to back up your blustery bluff.

      James Taylor

  6. Steeltown should post this comment as an op-ed in the local daily newspaper. When my mother came home from the afternoon shift making tires at Firestone you could smell the rubber all the way upstairs in our bedrooms. The East end where I grew up is a neighbourhood where families paid off 25 year mortgages, stayed, fixed up their houses and usually have nice cars in the driveway thanks to being careful with their money. I knew how many of these folks felt about the LRT plan because I would walk into Horton's and ask them.

    1. Mr. Bratina

      I stopped subscribing to the newspaper about a year ago. I came across this place through a friend who was talking abotu something that appeared here. So far, I like it but I don't normally submit things. But thanks for reading. I worked at the USM and know what it is like to be a Hamiltonian.


    2. Boy the way Glenn Miller Played
      Songs that made the Hit Parade
      Guys like us we had it made
      Those were the days.

      Didn't need no Welfare states
      Everybody pulled his weight
      gee our old LaSalle ran great
      Those were the days

      And you knew who you were then
      Girls were girls and men were men
      Mister, we could use a man like Herbert Hoover again

      People seemed to be content
      $50 payed the rent
      Freaks were in a circus tent
      Those were the days

      Bunker Mentality

    3. "When my mother came home from the afternoon shift making tires at Firestone you could smell the rubber all the way upstairs in our bedrooms."

      My dad came home smelling of the taxi cab he drove.

      My mom came home smelling like the resteraunt where she worked.

      And they both said things like "We are working hard so you wont have to work these crappy body killing soul destroying jobs and have a good education and get a good career. We want more for you"

      So thats what I did.

      Thanks mom and dad. Im glad I had parents like you that wanted more for their kids and werent fine with the status quo.

      Allan Graham

    4. "I knew how many of these folks felt about the LRT plan because I would walk into Horton's and ask them."

      Did you stop by Cafe Orange and ask how their customer felt about it?

      How bout The Pincone Cafe?

      How bout Red Crow?

      How about Venti?

      Did you visit ANY small, independent, ma and pa coffee shops and talk to their customers?

      Cause my dad the taxi driver ALWAYS spent his money at small family coffee shops. All the hacks did.

      My mom worked at small family owned eateries like the Knotty Pine or Valos. Thats were all the working people ate. Small family places.

      Mayor Bratina, next time you want to meet "the People" and get their views, expand your questions and research to coffee chops that arent owned and controlled by a giant multinational.

      The people at the smaller, independant shops, their opinions count too.

      Even if they happen to be drinkin lattes.

      Thanks Mayor Bratina

      Allan Graham

    5. I read here. Never commented before. Until the IMHO the really disturbing and destructive direction some people are trying to drive this discussion.

      Looks like lrt is dead. Im worried about our souls.

      If were breaking up people into groups of people that are "real" and people that "arent real" where is that leading us? I believe someplace very bad.

      We have all seen examples of societies and cultures that divided up people into groups that were "real people" and "not real people".

      In these awful horrible places 1930 Germany and Rwanda and Yugoslavia. What happened to the millions and millions of people that were classed as "non people"? In order of operations.

      First the "non people" were ridiculed.
      Then the "non people" were ignored.
      Then the "non people" were marginilized.
      Then the "non people were victimized.
      Then the "non people" were disenfranchised.
      Then the "non people" were dehumanized.
      Then the "non people" were exterminated.

      Now some people here and elsewhere seem to be at different stages, but theyre all taking us with them on to the same dark place.

      This must stop.

      Ruby Inacio

    6. Ruby. I think you are making this much too dramatic. Let's me tell you something about real Hamiltonians. We can holler at each other, slam out fists, call each other idiots, and still go for a beer at the end of the day. That;s us. Our feelings don;t get hurt.

      The fact that certain age groups share common attributes is just a fact. It's not something to lose any sleep over,

      Now that i have done my rounds through all the threads, I can relax with a espresso this morning at the best ma and pa shop ever- my house. .

    7. Sorce is a big part of problem. Here he goes again.

      You think all you have to do is brand yourself a "real Hamiltonian" and that gives you permission to "We can holler at each other, slam out fists, call each other idiots..."

      You could not have demonstrated my point more. Because you see yourself as a 'real Hamiltonian" you can be abusive but then you will go get drunk so it will be ok. And you wont have your feelings hurt. Yelling fighting and getting drunk. Then not caring about your actions cause your drunk.

      This is what "real Hamiltonians" are like?

      It is not.

      Ruby Inacio

    8. Ruby:

      I don't think you should not accuse others of being drunks. You don't know me. If you did, you would know that I don't drink alchohol period. Having a beer is an expression that us true Hamiltonians would recognize. Your accusation says more about you and nothing about me.

      And yes, I am to blame for this poorly thought out LRT that goes from Mac to ?????? oh right, nowhere. Yes, it is my fault. My posts did all that. Ireally think you should be blaming your council.

      As since you made an unfounded accusation, I should advise you that there is a sale at Michaels on construction paper and scissors. All colours. By the way, i was one of those ones whop prefeered to use a posicle stick when sampling the white glue. It controlled how much you out in your mouth and putting your fingers in the jar was bad manners.

    9. The Hamiltonian AdminApril 23, 2017

      Sorce and Ruby. Please stick to the topic and refrain from the rest.


    10. The topic was that even thoug lrt may not happen we still have to live together. And dividing people up into one group that is real and should be listened to and one group of people that arent real and should be ignored. Or worse.

      My point was people saying real people act this way or real people do these things and if you dont do them your not real.

      How we live together every day is more important than who gets what transit.

      But its really scary to see how Sorce tries to take it further while denying its happening.

      "Having a beer is an expression that us true Hamiltonians would recognize."

      First Sorces position was "real Hamiltonians dont drink lattes or like lrt"

      Now his point is "theres secret slang and code words real Hamiltonians use to communicate and if people like you dont know the real language of real Hamiltonians use your not one of us and you wont be cosndiered"

      Ruby Inacio

    11. "an op-ed in the local daily newspaper"



  7. I heard that LRT will also protect us from Alien invasions because we can hide underground

    From the sidelines

  8. "For example, staff indicated that the pipes along the stretch were in pretty good shape and one staffer stated that they were 20 years in, on a 100 hundred year life expectancy"

    Gary Moore, Director of Engineering for the City, said having Metrolinx replace the pipes alone will save the city 200$ milion dollars in servicing over the next 50 plus years.

    A huge benefit, yes?

    James Taylor

  9. And while we would not dismiss that this type of implementation, based on its degree of penetration of existing infrastructure, can provide for auxiliary benefits albeit confined to an 11km stretch that may, in some cases, have a greater city wide impact (but not necessarily the case in all instances), treating LRT as salvific in this context, can serve to make people wonder about whether we are considering its implementation for the right reasons.

    Ok. Gary Moore, Director of Engineering Services for Hamilton said by having Metrolinx replace the pipes on 11 kn of roadway righ now, the city can save 200$ million in servicing costs over the next 50 plus years.

    Those millions and millions of dollars saved each year can now be diverted to upgrading Stoney Creek, Flamborough, Binbrook, wherever.

    Thats just the pipes alone.

    Then there the savings from the hydro lines being replaced and/or buried.

    And the fibre and other cabling.

    So it was demonstrated again last night, there are numerous ways in which the LRT helps people that wont ever ride it.

    James Taylor

    1. @JT- LRT is dead.

    2. pipes that do not need replacing. Sound argument there.

    3. Gary Moore, Director of Engineering, said that having Metrolinx replace the pipes would save Hamilton taxpayer 200 million dollars. in your opinion they may not n
      "need" replacing, but our city and its taxpayer will save 200 million dollars.

      Your problem with that is what?

      James Taylot

    4. pipes that do not need replacement. Your difficulty understanding that?

    5. Oh I see.

      The Chief engineer for the City says Hamilton saves 200 million in tax.

      But "slipping jimmy" graham says hes wrong.

      I understand you cant dispute or deal with the facts. Replacing the pipes gives 200 million dollars in savings to the Hamilton taxpayer so you just keep repeating your opinion.

      James Taylor

  10. Interesting turn in the discussion of the LRT. Lets call some of the people opposed to LRT as "cautious", or "risk adverse". There was a time when these cautious, risk adverse people said

    "We dont have any proof or real life examples of how LRT can help with infrastructure upgrades or improved economic development or increased commercial tax revenue. Lets wait and see."

    Now, many of the same cautious, risk adverse people are saying "Yes. I see clearly now that LRT in Hamilton can help provide infrastructure upgrades and improved economic development and increased commercial tax revenue. Its happening in Waterloo and its happening in Mississuaga. But with Hamilton LRT, the infrastructure upgrades and improved economic development and increased commercial tax revenue are only going to benefit and 11 km stretch of King Street. Thats not fair. Why isnt Binbrook or Glanbrook or Ancaster getting and LRT? All parts of Hamilton should get the benefits. We should wait and see"

    Interesting trun.

    Allan Graham

    1. No infastructure help with lrt since all underground is in good shape per city documents

    2. Mr Allan Taylor

      As before, Gary Moore, Director of Engineering Services for Hamilton. This is and expert, head of Engineering, said by having Metrolinx replace the pipes on 11 kn of roadway right now, the city can save 200$ million in servicing costs over the next 50 plus years.

      City documents say the underground is in good shape? Fine.

      The upgrading of the pipes by Metrolinx saves Hamilton and the taxpayer 200 million dollars. Doesnt matter if the pipes are in good, fair, or medium condition. We save 200 million on pipes.

      Please articulate your problem with this.

      Allan Graham

    3. fortunately, you are not Director of Engineering Services. Mr. Moore has never expressed a need to replace infrastructure which is "in good shape" Only an irresponsible subversive with a pathological dislike of roadway would present such nonsense as an efficiency.

    4. Director of Engineering Services. Mr. Moore has said by having Metrolinx replace the pipes along the LRT route Hamilton will save 200 million dollars.

      Find it on CBC.

      Please read it. Then explain why you dont want Hamilton taxpayers to save 200 million dollars.

      Allan Graham

  11. "We're the ones who will always call Burlington street, Burlington street" Tesla Blvd you mean?

    It was Mayor Bratina who got the name changed from good ol' fashioned Burlington Street to Tesla Blvd, right.

    "Oh the way Glenn Miller played.."

    Bob Ross

  12. @Steeltown

    I am sorry your comments have been ridiculed by some. But this is par for the course. The arts and crafts people are losing and they are lashing out.

    1. Thank-you. I'm just reading the comments for now.


  13. and finally Premier Wynne confirms what most already knew.
    The money is for "transit in Hamilton"
    We decide. And we will.

    1. She said that before. Nothing has changed. All municipalities are free to decide on their priorities and put forward their strongest business case for funding consideration. And then the province decides where we fit in the priority sequence.

      All we have to do is supply the same level of documentation and consultation that was assembled for LRT. Build a business case. The City might start by retaining IBI for an overdue HSR Operational Review. The last one was undertaken almost 9 years ago and could use an update.

      It bears mentioning that this is the same procedure that brought us to this point. So like Brampton, the City now needs to bankroll the studies to unlock that promised funding.

      Sigma Cub

    2. She's undoubtedly hoping that council goes for it because it buys her time and improves her odds of holding on to the left side of the Legislature.

      Here's how it works: While Hamilton goes away to mull over what its dream scenario would look like and how it might work, the $1B that was teed up for the B-Line goes to a GTA project where the Liberals can defend multiple ridings (which hasn't been the case in Hamilton since the party's historic full house of 2003-2007) and hang onto their red fortress.

      Hamilton gets to feel empowered, and the Liberals get to hold on to power. Win-win.

      Paraglide Candidate

    3. I know that is what you want to portray, yet that is definitely not what was said.
      Despite your pessimism, I suspect things could get moving quite quickly once consensus is established, as opposed to solution dictated.

    4. Premier Wynne has said many times Hamilton can have the transit plan of its choice. Her ministers and spokespeople have confirmed this.

      What they have also confirmed, again and again again, is that Hamilton can reject the 1 billion for LRT. They can then submit a new plan to the province for approval. The province has also made clear that if Hamilton rejects the 1 billion for LRT, that 1 billion will go to the next project from another municipality that has already been approved. The province has made clear that all the money from this round of spending is allocated. The money budgeted will be spent. Hamilton is then going to wait for the next round of transit funding from this or the next provincial government.

      Now "slippin jimmy" graham may have faith in money will come from somewhere he cant say, but no one else does.

      James Taylor

    5. @James taylor. You are so naaive as to how politics really works

    6. You cant dispute the facts. The government has made it quite clear. You can say all you want "They will work it out. Why wouldnt they?"

      Right now there is a city in Ontario that has had their mass rapid transit plan approved for funding by the province. That they are good to go as soon as the money is available. But since all the mass rapid transit money is spent til whenever, they only way they can really hope to get funding is if another city that has been granted funding rejects the funding. Now you say despite everything the province has said about funding that we can reject the 1 billion for LRT and the province will give us the money for something else why?

      What incentive does the province have in breaking the rules, flouting the funding process, telling the other city get lost and holding onto the money until after we have referendum. Or two.

      Explain yourself please.

      James Taylor

    7. The Premier said that the 1 Billion is for Transit in Hamilton and she specifically rejected the notion that transit can only mean LRT.

      from the sidelines

    8. we will have the transit plan of our choice, that money is ours-it is not going anywhere-and we will use it for what we decide.
      James Taylor, Allen Graham, the orangemike, call them what you will, at the end of the day they will be relegated to the ranks of the disappointed, reduced to hurling insult and avoiding the implications of the effectiveness of their combined advocacy.
      I think many will find satisfaction with such a result.

    9. "I know that is what you want to portray, yet that is definitely not what was said."

      Here's a transcript of what Premier Wynne said: goo.gl/QWXUZj

      It's true that the Premier did not wade into the specifics of funding and implementation timelines, but those matters are out of Hamilton's hands. Her statement is ultimately the same as the campaign promise of 2007 that set Hamilton on the path to the 2015 funding announcement.

      2024 will be here before you know it, and council could still be moving to defer.

      Sigma Cub

    10. those matters are completely within our control, and a decision is imminent.
      but it is not as if you have a reputation at stake, so continue to forecast what your crystal ball reveals.

    11. Maybe you're correct and the province will just give council $1B without due diligence. But given councillors' insistence on due diligence, and for insulating taxpayers from operating cost implications, it seems inevitable that this will by no means be a swift solution. The most expedient solution would be B-Line BRT, since it is the city's best-documented and researched transit corridor. Then again, councillors might be of differing opinion on the best solution. And the ask would have to be specific, one imagines. Again, this was also the case on B-Line LRT. It's possible that council would bog down in scrabbling to make sure that their ward saw a slice of that juicy $1B pie. This would complicate the outlines of the proposed project.

      On top of which, historically Metrolinx has also evaluated and prioritized investments under an established Project Prioritization Framework:
      Building any transit funding proposals with these criteria in mind would aid our cause.

      I have no reason to doubt the City's agency as a decision making machine. I'm just aware that when it comes to announcements of government funding, language matters. Things are often said to sound like they mean something that they do not technically say.

      Sigma Cub

    12. yes language matters, I heard what she said, and I believe her.
      Could infighting further ruin this mess? Absolutely.
      Admitting there is no consensus, no majority support, and that it is not "LRT or nothing" would signal real progress to my mind.

    13. The Premier's last policy improvisation around Hamilton transit infrastructure was insistence on a James Street LRT spur, so I take her words with a pinch of salt, but I admire your optimism regarding the guilelessness of government.

      I've never suggested that Hamilton was limited to one modal choice with regard to its transit strategy, just that the current funding is linked to council's preferred mode and corridor — B-Line LRT was "dictated" by council consensus — which they did the years of legwork for.

      The further they stray from that project, the longer it will take to make their case and the harder it will be to acquire full funding, since each divergence will require jumping through bureaucratic hoops. (Again, maybe just a waiting game: Preparing the studies for a funding request on an LRT realignment is anticipated to take the City of Brampton up to seven years, for example.) And at the end of it all, Hamilton's new proposal might not meet the criteria required to unlock the promised funding. And that can potentially keep happening, even in cases where the City is ponying up a substantial share of a project's cost.

      It also goes without saying that nothing is really free. Just as Hamilton would not own the LRT line, it might not own any of the transit infrastructure funded by that $1B hypothetically reserved for Hamilton if it funded BRT. A new arrangement will inevitably come with terms, and those terms might not be any better than those associated with LRT.

      Again, a good place to start would be to have council contract a performance review of the HSR as it stands in 2017. The last time they undertook such a study was almost 9 years ago, and the resulting information from an updated evaluation would undoubtedly make for more informed transit investments. And whatever solution you prefer, that much should be a point of agreement.

      Sigma Cub

    14. we know what you have said, and if consensus is reached by council as to how best to spend that cash allocated for our transit upgrade, I will be sure to remind you. Count on me.

    15. If you know what I have said, you will recall this:

      "I have no reason to doubt the City's agency as a decision making machine."

      I'm not suggesting that council can't reach consensus, just that council consensus will not necessarily be swift or straightforward (a point you concede with your "if"), and that, despite the inference drawn from the Premier's off-the-cuff comments, the reality of unlocking $1B in provincial funding may be more complicated than writing a letter to Santa. Especially when council has just recently had a crisis of faith in the HSR and hit the brakes on its Ten Year Local Transit Strategy.

      Sigma Cub

  14. Burlington Street is still Burlington Street. All the addresses are the same. The elevated portion from Ottawa to Woodward is named after Tesla who played an important and direct role in developing Hamilton's industrial economy. Burlington Street is still there beside and below. Steeltown's comment I believe is aimed at elitist attitudes far too prevalent among the chattering class that has dominated what should have been an honest discussion.

    1. He's superior to those elitists.


    2. Bob Bratina,

      Can you please provide a few names of people with "elitist attitudes" that are "far too prevalent among the chattering class"?

      Im asking cause we were at the pro LRT rally on Saturday. We saw many people speak. Blue collar working class people young and middle aged and old. Self employed entrepeneurs. Organised labour. People with disabilities and their support groups. Poverty advocates. New Canadians.

      These cant be the people your talking about.

      Then I looked online and saw almost so many neighbourhood associations supporting LRT. And Hamilton Health Sciences. And McMaster Mohawk. And so many groups and organizations for people with mobility issue and income issues and groups for a better environment and better air quality.

      These clearly arent the people your talking about.

      Maybe your talking about the powerful and influential groups like the Hamilton Halton Home Builders Association or the Chamber of Commerce the Hamilton Wentworth Realtors Association or Vrancor. But when you were Mayor you stressed over and over that for Hamilton to grow and prosper we had to partner and be guided by experts and people with real experience. Like you worked with al of these groups to help Hamilton Grow.

      So I dont think these are the people with "elitist attitudes" that are partof the "chattering class" your talking about.

      So thank you in advance for providing just a few examples of exactly who has these "elitist attitudes" and who is part of the "chattering class" that have "dominated" this discussion.

      Allan Graham

    3. A post that has at its central core that "Real Hamiltonians drink regular coffee. Their opinions matter. Anyone that drinks lattes isnt a "real" Hamiltonian and their opinions dont matter"

      That anyone would find this type of divisive opinion to be relevant is troubling for future discourse.

      Charles McGill

  15. ".....treating LRT as salvific in this context, can serve to make people wonder about whether we are considering its implementation for the right reasons."

    Whichever people write your stuff, it's brilliant.

    from the sidelines

    1. Brilliant. Sure. I would love some clarification though.

      "treating LRT as salvific in this context"

      Can The Hamiltonian give any examples of pro LRT people in Hamilton that have said LRT would "save" or "redeem" Hamilton. Help yes, save no.

      I see there are many experts that are pro LRT in Hamilton like Dr. Chris Higgins and groups like the Chamber of Commerce and Hamilton Health Sciences that back LRT publicly. Even groups like Hamilton Light Rail or Raise the Hammmer that advocate for LRT.

      I have seen these and many many other various groups people and organizations talk about how LRT would benefit many different types of people and solve many different types of problems.

      Dont remember any of these individuals or groups saying LRT would help ALL people or solve ALL problems.

      James Taylor

    2. the folks at RTH have "raised" the status of Whitehead to "rock star" and the voice of reason. I bet that was an unintended consequence.

  16. Hey James

    I am not a school teacher, so i suggest you maybe talk to a few veteran politicians off the record. I don't know how long you've been on here, but I don't think the purpose of TH is for you to ask them questions and they to respond to you. it's a place for discussion between people who care for Hamilton.

    It's a rainy night. Think i'll drive to Tim's , through the drive through and have a regular coffee. Be back

    1. Sorce says: "I don't know how long you've been on here, but I don't think the purpose of TH is for you to ask them questions and they to respond to you"

      First Socre, whenever anyone, politician or not, posts their opinion in a public forum, and then responds to other commenters, I will free to ask them any question I want.

      Second, you arent the publisher.

      Third, you better tell "slippin jimmy graham your thought. Heres jim on the Hamiltonian asking Mayor Bob some questions. Today.

      "jim grahamApril 20, 2017

      Slightly off topic, and please forgive me if I am placing you in a difficult position, but I am wondering if you would have any comment/insight into the apparent divergence between McMeekin "it is LRT- or bye bye to a billion" and Wynne "it is to build transit, you decide" which she reconfirmed earlier today.

      Great minds think alike eh Sorce?

      James Taylor

    2. Really?

      "It's a rainy night. Think i'll drive to Tim's , through the drive through and have a regular coffee. Be back"

      Theres so many struggling, small independent ma and pa style coffee shops all over Hamilton. Your can get such good quality coffee at a fair price at so many small family owned business that could use your business.

      But your going to Tims.

      A big giant corporation.


      Allan Graham

  17. Ahhhh, yes a peppermint tea from Tims. Very nice. Not a bad drive either.

    Here's what you wrote James (you probably forgot)

    "Can The Hamiltonian give any examples of pro LRT people in Hamilton that have said LRT would "save" or "redeem" Hamilton. Help yes, save no"

    Nothing to do with Bratina n'est pas?
    Sorce -oakav

    Apple fritter is probably not good for the arteries though.

    1. I always got time for Tim Hortons

    2. "Apple fritter is probably not good for the arteries though.'

      Dare to dream.


    3. "I always got time for Tim Hortons

      Watch out Sorce. Be very very careful about the customers at Tims. Tims may NOT be the safe place you think it is. No siree Bob. I heard something shocking. Maybe you can confirm. But I hear Tims is serving.... lattes! gasp!

      Bob Ross

    4. Tim's opened in Hamilton in 1964 Bob. Enjoy your latte.

    5. Nothing better illustrates Dorcres mind set more than this whole "I drink at Tims cause Im a REAL Hamiltonian and Time is the REAL Hamiltonian coffee shop with REAL coffee...." and on and on and on.

      "Tim's opened in Hamilton in 1964 Bob. Enjoy your latte"

      Yep, Tims opened in Hamilton in 1964.

      Then it was bought by and American company.

      Now its part of a huge multinational conglomerate owned by a company in Brazil.

      But since your stuck in the summer of '64 you wouldnt want to know that I guess.

      Oh yea, next time your at Tims look up at the marquee. What is Tims pushing?


      Bob Ross

    6. Hi Bob

      I am a real Hamiltonian not based on the coffee I drink, but based on the amount of time I have been here and the changes I have experienced and have been a part of. So your fixation on what coffee I drink, is quite beside the point and besides, it was peppermint tea the other day.

      LRT is now dead. We need to work with one another to make sure the next plan is well thought out and is suitable to all. I probably could have lived with the Mac to Eastgate scheme. It would make greater sense. And I think it would actually be a great idea, if it was done in concert with a BRT scheme that serviced the rest of the city including those west, east and up the mountain. Now that is the voice of reason. It's not about coffee or tea. What do you think Bob?

  18. Allan- you should really try the farmers sandwich at Tim's. I grab one on my way to my office most mornings, in the drive through.

    On the LRT thing, it really is over. I think everyone can see that. Move on and don't let it stress you.

  19. Just an opinion. The infrastructure upgrade albeit to only 11 km of infrastructure (in a huge city) that doesn't need replacing (according to City staff) appears to be a red herring to me. Maybe I'm wrong and I am willing to hear other people's opinions.

    However, this is many of the complex issues around this project and highlights that we need to consider it from a larger perspective rather than solely putting rail track with overhead power lines and many ugly transformer stations along the route (something that Waterloo Region has not highlighted publically) in the ground for a train.

    Personally, since this (replacement of existing infrastructure with upsizing costs borne by Hamiltonians) has come out more recently, I am somewhat skeptical as to the legitimacy of the argument as I see it as a red herring and a way for the echo chamber of pro-lrt people to justify an expensive rail transit project. One that may already be outdated.

    Look to Germany with Canadian innovation for Hydrogen powered trains recognizing they still run on fixed rail tracks but don't require unsightly poles, overhead hydro lines and large transformer stations.

    I find it humorous that what is old is new again. I'm not sure that our elected officials are looking to the future. When you look at the decision makers for the future they are from generations past and not representative of the future. That is not to be disrespectful as life experience and knowledge is paramount but please consider those silly younger generation's comments as well, they will be the ones paying for today's decisions in the years to come.


    1. "Maybe I'm wrong and I am willing to hear other people's opinions."

      "that doesn't need replacing (according to City staff"

      I read on CBC that Gary Moore,the cities Director of Engineer, said Hamilton can save 200 million dollars by having the pipes replaced.

      You didnt know that did you?

      Now you do.

      You must be pleased Hamilton can save 200 million dollars by replacing the pipe.

      Allan Graham

  20. ok folks. Pay attention. Here is politics 101 for today

    Wynne has no choice but be truthful and say that the 1 Billion is for transit for Hamilton. She was asked repeatedly and not once did she say it was for LRT only. She said repeatedly that it was for transit- see the clip for yourself. It is very recent.

    Now Wynne is a politician so she also knows that she could embarrass Hamilton council and mayor, so she includes a throwaway line "I hope it's LRT, but it's for transit." After that, she again says, it is for transit.

    Now, the arts and crafts people have put their hands over their ears and are screaming La La La La but that's what the reality is.

    The 1 Billion is not necessarily tied to LRT and never has been; regardless of what Mr. McMeeken says. He really should think about how he is now being perceived, the the Premier should really have a talk with him. McMeeken is also playing politics, but to an extreme that is not right.

    Fred Eisenberger should recognize that the game has ended. People know the truth about the 1 Billion and he needs to quickly start coming up with a more appropriate and acceptable plan for Hamilton that does not treat Ancaster, the Mountain, Stoney Creek etc. as second rate standbyers who need to take yet another one for the team. The "team" doesn't realize who they are playing for any more and they need to be replaced in the next election.

    It is sickening hearing certain councillors wine about the infrastructure deficit. The same winers has been in office for at least 2-3 terms. What have you done that has proven effective? Why are you still wining and not doing? You should be embarrassed, Truly, we need term limits.
    Sorce oakav and a true Hamiltonian

    No congestion of the roads today...hmmm

    1. The solution would not be the mayor imposing starting the process over again, doing what the City did for LRT and tripling the scale and scope of research and of course public consultation. So council needs to determine how they will fund that work, and then reinstate its Ten Year Transit Strategy. COuncillors and citizens also need to acknowledge that even if the City manages to unlock the provincial funds a second time, the costs cover capital expenses only. Operational costs are the lion's share of what taxpayers experience as the "cost" of transit via property taxes, and any move that is not adequately supported by ridership (as in service expansion to low-density car-dependent suburbs) will necessarily require annongoing tax levy. Council can demonstrate its commitment to its transit plans by locking in to the two-term tax levy schedule outlined in the Ten Year Transit Strategy. (The HSR's service is determined by two factors: how ridership demand compares to the HSR Service Guidelines~to make service most cost effective~and area rating for transit. The best way to get bus service improved is to take the bus more often. Even if service sucks now, it will never improve if the population along the route doesn't use it.)

      Think of it from the province's standpoint: If Hamilton's council doesn't see the point of investing in the long-term growth of the HSR, why should they? Now more than ever, Council needs to shore up its credibility on the transit file.

      Roll up your pyjama sleeves, people. You're about to earn your pay.

      La Bas

    2. Captain HamiltonApril 22, 2017

      I agree with La Bas that the key in ridership. I don't believe we have enough of it and I doubt it will increase. A lot of people still love their cars. I don't know if that will change

      The Captain

  21. The Hamiltonian AdminApril 21, 2017

    We have noted that comments are once again being laced with snide digs. We won't be publishing these comments and this conduct is what can cause the comment capacity to be shut down. Please respect our site policy. We have received instruction to reject any comment that ventures into unprofessionalism. Please, let's not waste our respective time.

    The Hamiltonian Admin

  22. The Hamiltonian AdminApril 21, 2017

    Further, if anyone has a suggestion or issue with the way the site is being run, please send your comments to admin@thehamiltonian.net. Comments received in this way will be discussed by the team. Suggestion or issues submitted through the posting mechanism are deleted and not discussed.

    Thanks for your understanding.

    The Hamiltonian Admin

    1. The Hamiltonian AdminApril 22, 2017

      Sorry. Meant to say admin@thehamiltonian.info

  23. Hi Allan, yes I heard what Gary Moore said. My point is that the said infrastructure does not need replacing now. It isn't even in the ten year capital plan for replacement.

    All infrastructure needs to maintain and replaced over time. That is why I call it a red herring.


    1. "All infrastructure needs to maintain and replaced over time"

      Yes. True.

      And Metrolinx is ready to do that.

      And then Hamilton saves 200$ dollars.

      Jimmy, before any further discourse, please clarify your position fully.

      We know that replacing the infrastructure along 11 kn of King will save city taxpayers 100s and 100s of millions of dollars. The city says so.

      We know that the economic development by new growth and business opportunity will be immense. The investors and buyers and builders have spent time money and effort in Hamilton because of LRT.

      The increased taxs that come in from these new commercial development will help grow all areas of the city and keep residential tax increases to a minimum.

      Is your position that all these known and proven benefits are "red herrings?"

      Thanks for the clarification

      Allan Taylor

      is your position that every benefit to Hamilton whether it be upgraded infrastructure that saves the city hundreds of millions of dollars or eco

  24. "My point is that the said infrastructure does not need replacing now'

    Your point is taken.

    Heres mine.

    Replacing the pipes now, saves Hamilton taxpayers 200 million dollars.

    Leaving them alone means Hamilton taxpayers will pay 200 million dollars more than they need to.

    So the "need" is the 200 million dollars in savings to the Hamilton taxpayer. Thats the need.

    Allan Graham

    1. see my views on the Paul Johnson threwad. Don't want to duplicate it here
      Sorce oakav

      you will also finally find out what oakanv stands for- for those who keep asking

  25. Our "Twenty Year" furnace was about twelve years old. Still had eight years, minimum. From the time we bought it over the first five years it was almost a 100% efficient.

    About year 7 the efficiency drops. And the machine needs maintenance and tune ups more frequently than years one through five.

    Year eleven. The efficiency has dropped again. Maintenance and tune ups more frequent, and the first replacement part.

    We look at the cost of replacing our "Twenty Year" furnace eight or nine years early to see if it makes sense.

    It does.

    Substantial gains in efficiencies, five year warranty with maintenance.

    The money saved on heating, maintenance and repairs made it a no brainer to spend thousands of dollars on a piece of equipment that was working "fine" and didnt "need" to be replaced for almost ten years.

    Every homeowner or car owner has been through this.

    Heres the downside: we had to pay thousands of dollars up front to save more in the long run.

    Hamilton is not paying for the upgrades. The province is.

    The city is saving 200 million dollars.

    Charles McGill

    1. nice analogy. You spend foolishly. What was your ROI for the example you provided?

    2. "You spend foolishly. What was your ROI for the example you provided?"

      I think the above comment illustrates quite tellingly how jim graham process's information.

      First, he decides how he feels about the subject, he condemns my decisions very strongly and without hesitation.

      Then he starts asking questions.

      Very telling indeed.

      Charles McGill

    3. indeed, mumble something about feelings being hurt, deflect from inability to directly address questions arising from original foolishness.
      Year 11 efficiency dropped...Merulla the Maytag man told me so...Ryan said if I didn't replace it immediately I would be a self loathing squelcher (don't want to be that!)
      Turns out the problem was actually the lack of windows. Who knew?

    4. excellent story Charles, logic like yours will surely convince the undecided that LRT is the only choice for Hamiltonian's. Did you get the Province to pay for the furnace? Did Ted threaten if you did not purchase it some home in Brampton would be getting it? No?
      Still a great story.


    5. "indeed, mumble something about feelings being hurt"

      Can you show me in my comment where that happened?

      Charles McGill

    6. "Did you get the Province to pay for the furnace?"

      Yes, yes they did.

      And the federal government.

      They thought it a great idea.

      There were incentives at the time from both levels of government to replace heating equipment.

      Charles McGill

    7. Geez, "slippin jimmy" graham is really slippin.

      Bob Ross

    8. you extended your return on investment, and increased your total cost of ownership. Squandered savings while reducing available credit. When the foolishness of your vision is revealed, you have the government assume the dunce cap.
      The feds thought it was a great idea, and so did you. Hook, line and sinker.
      We question your "logic" Fixing that which is not broken.

    9. Mr. jim graham would have us mismanage our city as he apparently mismanages his home.

      Mr. jim graham seems to be the type of person that waits till his furnace breaks to start looking for a new one.

      Mr. jim grahams thinks calling up a furnace company and saying "Yea, I know its the middle of the night in the middle of January but can you come over to my house and give me a quote on a new furnace? Mines broken."

      As Mr jim graham deals with his furnace is how he would have Hamilton deal with its infrastructure.

      Maybe MR jim graham thinks that good planning.

      Maybe Mr. jim graham feels thats how you make the best decisions and how you get the best price.

      Most wouldnt.

      James Taylor

    10. you extended your roi, and increased your tco. reduced cash on hand, reduced available credit. And now a real emergency appears. Sorry. Nice and toasty in here eh?
      Or "how to bankrupt yourself for no discernible reason"- by the Mayor of Spongetown.

  26. Herman TurkstraApril 21, 2017

    Is there any chance that the LRT-Opposition filling this comment section were supporters of the suburban LRT called the RedHill expressway?

    1. Well said. Was thinking the same thing.

      King's Forest

    2. Well I know the 'fiscally responsible" Councillor Partridge supported, lobbied and voted for the Waterdown Road Upgrade.

      A huge portion of the Waterdown Road Upgrade took place in Burlington. Burlington opposed it and had zero interest in funding it. Hamilton agreed to pay 95% and Burlington %5. They agreed to this in 2010 knowing the project wouldnt start or have a final cost until 2017/2018.

      So Hamilton City Council "stepped up" and payed up.

      From the Flamborough Review


      The Waterdown Road-widening between Mountain Brow Road and North Service Road is primarily meant to allow the growing community of Waterdown an eastern access point to the QEW.

      The cost-sharing on the $14.09-million project is therefore split 95 to 5 per cent with Burlington residents paying $710,000 of the price tag and Hamilton taxpayers on the hook for the remainder.

      Craven has been a longtime opponent of the road-widening plan and said he wouldn’t support the staff recommendation.

      “I will remind members of committee that widening Waterdown Road is contrary to the promises made to the residents of North Aldershot as part of the North Aldershot interagency review process in the 1990s. This is required only to accommodate Hamilton’s needs and not Burlington’s needs.”

      Here Councillor Partridges website about this "achievement"


      "Also, the widening of Parkside Drive is set to start construction in 2017 and the Waterdown Road expansion, which is a joint project with the City of Burlington will start in 2019"

      Any mention of cost? What Hamilton is paying? What we get? What is in place to protect Hamilton taxpayers? No.

      When asked by CBC about cost over runs or who would pay for the east west bypass, Councillor Partridge said:

      "Developers will pay for the east-west bypass through development charges, Partridge said."


      Now get this:

      The cost was last estimated to be $23.3 million in 2010. Partridge said a contingency fund has been built into the project, but she did not expect “a huge difference.” Craven said it will have to be costed out again because of the time that has passed. Burlington council voted in 2012 for Hamilton to pay 95 per cent of the cost.


      So Councillor Partridge is fine with agreeing to pay 95% of an unknown amount reaching into the tens of millions of Hamilton taxpayer dollars.

      For a road which the bulk of is outside Hamiltons border.

      She knows the cost, already tens of millions of dollars to Hamilton taxpayers will need an unknown addition of funding from Hamilton taxpayers.

      Shes not worried cause the cost overruns shes admits to in advance wont be "huge"

      And the upgrade will pay for itself through development charges.

      Now compare this with Councillor Partridges "concerns" over LRT.

      Im sure you see the obvious.

      Charles McGill

    3. yes Charles, it is quite obvious, Ms. Partridge see's the value and benefit to community respecting Waterdown Road, and not in the LRT proposal.
      And you disagree. Fair enough.
      I don't see Vanderbeek slandering your opinions on social media however-a defining difference to be sure.

    4. "yes Charles, it is quite obvious, Ms. Partridge see's the value and benefit to community respecting Waterdown Road, and not in the LRT proposal."

      Her double standard would be obvious to all.

      Feel free to refute.

      Charles McGill

  27. Developer charges would presumably only cover Hamilton infrastructure. IIRC, DCs can cover up to 75% of servicing costs, which is obviously more than just roads. AFAIK, Hamilton DCs aren't formulated to cover infrastructure work in neighbouring municipalities, so it would be interesting to see the numbers on that. It would presumably have been documented in a GIC agenda item somewhere along he way. At minimum, Burlington obviously ran the numbers.

    Happy Hunting

  28. orangemike/Jim Taylor/Allen Graham/Charles McGill
    With support for LRT continuing to erode, your efforts must be afforded the recognition they deserve. While others have attempted to match your zeal, none could be considered an equal, you have been singular in your reach. Your presence has inspired opposition, your rhetoric has revealed and confirmed shortcomings.
    Where might this be without you? I salute you.

    1. I feel like responding to Mr jim Graham since I have been mentioned.

      "With support for LRT continuing to erode,.."

      You have no proof of this. Your opinion only. Noted.

      "your rhetoric has revealed and confirmed shortcomings."

      Yes, your shortcomings have been revealed.

      Time and time again.

      By all.

      Charles McGill

  29. This debate about the furnace has been interesting. I guess I'm a little more conservative in my spending. Although I wouldn't wait for it to break down in January before I did something.

    If I have a leaking roof, cracked foundation with water running in and a mid life furnace. I wouldn't run out and buy the top of the line furnace, I'd squeak out the remaining life while I took care of the other pressing problems.

    The Cadillac Escalade is a want and not a need when the good old Chevy SUV will do just fine and get me from point A to B comfortably.

    Just a note, the Development Charges Act was amended a year ago December where projects such as LRT can be included. Has Hamilton looked at this, Waterloo Region has. Let the new owners of all the new development contribute to the capital costs. I predict the EA will be approved Wednesday now that the Eastgate Mall skunk has been thrown on the table. If it goes through, I certainly don't want to pay for it, the City should up the DC's and let all the new people pay for it along the route.

    I have enough to pay for, with the infrastructure deficit and crumbling escarpment access retaining walls.


    1. "If I have a leaking roof, cracked foundation with water running in and a mid life furnace. I wouldn't run out and buy the top of the line furnace, I'd squeak out the remaining life while I took care of the other pressing problems."

      Ok. Good scenario.

      Here another.

      Your roof is leaking.

      Cracked foundation with water running in.

      A contractor makes you an offer:

      I will do the roofing job and I will fix your foundation for free and I will give you a furnace for free.

      Thats LRT Jimmy.

      The contractor is Metrolinx. They are offering to fix the roof and the foundation. The furnace company is Metrolinx. They are offering to replace the furnace.

      But you for some reason would rather live with a leaky roof cracked foundation and be in the cold.

      Charles McGill

    2. "The Cadillac Escalade is a want and not a need when the good old Chevy SUV will do just fine and get me from point A to B comfortably."

      Clearly you are unfamiliar with the HSR user experience.



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