We touched base with Paul Johnson , on this topic. Enjoy our chat with Paul:
Recently, at least one councillor expressed concern over the potential poor aesthetics overhead lines may have in a LRT implementation in Hamilton. What can be known at this point in time as to how many overhead lines will be in place, where these locations will be, how many are needed and what they might look like. In the LRT considerations, to what extent was this considered and discussed and are there any realistic artistic renderings that may give us a visual of how these lines would present in Hamilton?
Paul replied as follows:
· Centre poles are located between the tracks with the wire suspended on either side.
· Side poles are located at the side of the road or sidewalk, with arms or support wires extending across the roadway and LRT tracks.
· Building mounts can be used in narrow corridors where appropriate mounting locations are available.
· Both side and centre OCS poles can be combined with street light poles to minimize intrusion.
The design of the OCS is not finalized at this time but I can share that our goal for the OCS is to employ design improvements to lessen the visual impact. Examples include:
· Poles shall be spaced as far apart as possible and maintain approximately equal spacing along the line.
· OCS poles will be coloured to match other street elements and blend with other city street furniture that contribute to the character of the corridor.
· Where possible, OCS poles will not be located on platforms.
· OCS poles shall be designed and located to not impede pedestrian flow.
· Support poles shall be slender, tapered and as visually unobtrusive as possible.
· Poles shall be consolidated where possible (i.e. shared OCS and street lighting poles).
I just returned from a trip to Calgary.
ReplyDeleteMy hotel in the East Village had LRT running right outside my window.
I rode the LRT to see what it was like. Safe, clean, quiet, reliable, and comfortable. And their cars are not new, and don't ride at street level!
The LRT was also quiet - while you did hear the occasional rumble, it was not intrusive in any way - the car horns were far more noticeable and annoying.
The overhead wire thing is a red herring. CalTrans has done a great job of incorporating the wire supports into the streetlights, and they are near-invisible. Definitely not noticable, and definitely not ugly. There were a few rusty LRT cars and mismatched colour schemes were more ugly.
I encourage Clr. Skelly, Whitehead and the Gang of 10 to go outside of our area to an actual functioning LRT and do the following:
- Ride the route.
- Ask commuters for their thoughts, pro and con.
- Ask the transit authority for the pros and cons.
- Ask those that don't ride it, for the pros and cons.
- Talk to the businesses that were there before, during, and after construction. Seek out businesses that closed during construction to find out why they closed.
~Mountain Man
I don't think the lines are a show stopper. The fact that it is a very poor solution (and I use the term loosely as we don't have congestion and we don't have a critical mass of people lining up for the HSR, let alone this).
ReplyDeleteDouble double tonight. Tired of the sweeteners.
Sorce
"We don't have congestion"
DeleteIn terms of traffic volume (i.e. vehicles per-lane-km-of-road), Hamilton has lower road congestion than Toronto, London, Windsor or Halton.
We don't have the critical mass of traffic for 6300 lane kilometres of road, but that doesn't stop it from being the second highest source of local taxpayer costs (after policing).
Unicorn Frappucino
Steve
Sorce never tires of getting it wrong.
Delete"and we don't have a critical mass of people lining up for the HSR, let alone this)"
Tens of thousands of people annually ARE lining up for HSR bus's that pass them by.
Another broken part of the HSR system Sorce keeps on saying "works very well".
View or download the PDF report on pass bys.
Heres a snippet.
"HSR statistics for the last two years show at least 200 pass-bys every month with peaks climbing over 1000 during the six busiest months. The pass-bys here don’t drop below 800 during either the September-November period or the January-March timeframe when most university students ride the HSR. This is consistent with data showing there are more passengers per bus in Hamilton than anywhere else in the GTA except Toronto.
If these pass-bys occur mainly during weekdays, that works out to at least 10 and up to 50 buses a day that are so overloaded as to be unable to pick up more passengers"
But Socre doesnt believe experts or data or links to facts.
He just "knows" cause Socre is, according to Socre "a real Hamiltonian".
Whatever that is.
James Taylor
Hey James. if you don't know what a real Hamiltonian is, try to find Steel Town's post, He described us very well. The uptake on transit has long been an issue that had made people nervous. these are just facts. I don't know of anyone who had plans to give up driving their car anytime soon, LRT or not,. I also know of anyone who plans top use their car less once LRT comes around, if it does. The again, I also don't buy construction paper.
DeleteSorce
I'm debating McDonalds or Tim's tonight. I like their coffee almost equally.
James- if you are going to address me directly, please refer to me as Sorce oakav
DeleteThanks
Sorce oakav
Don't worry about the aesthetics of the lines, they are the least concern, wait until you see the transformers/electrical boxes along the route that are like small shipping containers. Look at Kitchener and Waterloo for an example.
ReplyDeleteHopefully, Hamilton will do something to design them to fade into the background so they have less impact.
Jimmy
No worries Jimmy. I googled "electrical transformers LRT public art"
DeleteLook at the attractive designs.
A LRT electrical transformer designed to look like a stack of books. In front of a library.
Looks great.
The transformers done up like circuit boards and other high tech gadgets was cool.
I really like the one with the Native person dancing.
So we use public art to beautify an ugly piece of LRT tech.
Problem solved.
Next problem
James Taylor
no problem Jimmy.
DeleteCan of spray paint. Tagging, graffiti, public art. It'll be beautiful.
Bam. Presto. Chango.
Next.
Jim, why must everything be so negative? It doesn't hurt to be positive on some things. LRT is a reality now, you'll have to deal with it. Like the councillors who voted against it, they will work to make it the best they can. That doesn't mean that everything for LRT is bad.
Delete~Mountain Man
jim graham says:
Delete"public art. It'll be beautiful.
Bam. Presto. Chango.
Next"
"Next"
Next.
Exactly jim. Glad youre getting it.
My favourite part about the whole thing was how your opinion that it was inevitable that Hamiltons LRT system would be ugly was demonstrated by a simple google search to be totally bogus.
James Taylor
The nerve of Ms.Skelly, expressing an objective personal opinion without first obtaining approval from the Mayor or Councilor Green. Who does that woman think she is?
ReplyDeleteEveryone knows this new tangle of wires and poles will be absolutely stunning, far more attractive than the existing trees that will be removed-every single one on the route-to accommodate such progressive thinking. The addition of personal flourishes like sneakers thrown over wires will only add to the ambiance, and confirm the "character of the corridor"
Check out "OCS-Free Light Rail Vehicle Technology" by Jeffery Pringle.
Compare for yourself, what is available vs. what we are getting.
A poor plan, employing dated technology, to transform a City.
Only in a culture of low expectations.
My how the goalposts have moved.
DeleteFor the first time in recorded history, Mr jim graham has something nice to say about an LRT system
Yes siree, quite the change of heart for Mr jim graham.
Whats changed Mr jim grahams mind?
Why has Mr jim graham finally found a LRT system he wants for Hamilton?
What could it be about THIS particular LRT that has Mr jim graham singing the praises of LRT?
Because he says its not the one were getting.
No surprises.
James Taylor
"A poor plan, employing dated technology, to transform a City."
DeleteAccording to jim graham, self driving flying cars are right around the corner. So we should wait.
Then its transporter tech that will be right around the corner. So we should wait.
And wait and wait.
But we didnt.
We got LRT
10-5
Charles McGill
jim grahamMay 02, 2017
Delete"The nerve of Ms.Skelly, expressing an objective personal opinion without first obtaining approval from the Mayor or Councilor Green. Who does that woman think she is?"
This person is saying some pretty misogynistic and nasty things about women. Why shouldnt a woman councilor be allowed to speak her mind?
This isnt the dark ages.
Ruby Inacio
A shame that all of the months and years of energy that has been dedicated to killing LRT was not used to better the project or the city. Only in a culture of low expectations.
ReplyDeleteFlywheel
I think Whitehead and Skelly are to recognized for their efforts. I also think Mayor E. did a good job, although I don't think this is at all good for Hamilton. There is a lot of pain and grief ahead. I may also have to change my route to get to my office. Then we'll have manufactured congestion, needlessly.
DeleteSorce
I have different expectations not lower expectations. It's well past time for pro urban advocates understand that your utopia is not mine
DeleteExcited to see that councillors are interested in investing in transit again. That at least is a break from the status quo.
DeleteSigma Cub
"transit agencies must be prudent to carefully analyze their unique operation and rolling stock needs prior to committing to new technology"
Deleteor put Charles McGill in charge of planning, implementation, and public relations.
Quite a resume.
Ralph Kramden.
hey hey Ralphie Baby. Looking forward to riding the LRT to work. Sure is a big upgrade over those city bus's we been trying to take to work.
DeleteNorton
you always were the clever one Norton.
DeleteThe reason you are standing here is those LRT drivers took your job, no more work to go to Norton ol' pal.
Councilor Green thought it was a good idea. Remember him? From the rally?
Ralph Kramden
what would happen if you put anonymous subversives in charge of planning a $1 Billion Dollar infrastructure investment?
ReplyDeleteUgly happens. Generational ugly. Ugly without recourse. Mile after mile of ugly.
Ugly-even by Hamilton standards-ugly.
Intrusion and impact will have to be addressed, because it'll be so ugly.
Thank-you planners for toiling for 10 long years, dotting i's and crossing t's in order to come up with this masterpiece. We are forever indebted. Literally.
"what would happen if you put anonymous subversives in charge of planning a $1 Billion Dollar infrastructure investment?"
DeleteThis never happened. All part of someones paranoid fantasy.
Mike Stark
was it you? Who designed this? Kindly provide a name and address.
DeleteSo we know who to "thank"
"The Hamilton LRT project is procured as a Design, Build, Finance, Operate, Maintain contract using IO's Alternative Financing and Procurement (AFP) delivery model. AFP transfers the appropriate risks associated with design, construction, financing, operation and maintenance of the project to the private sector."
Deletehttp://www.infrastructureontario.ca/Request-for-Qualifications-Issued-Hamilton-LRT/
Septime
then why is Mr.Johnson referencing OCS? Why is this a pre-determined element?
DeleteCheapest possible solution?
Not sure. Given that mushy comms are common to government projects, I don't read much into it. I suppose that OCS/pantographs are widely used on LRT, whereas in-ground solutions tend to be proprietary technology (eg. Alstom APS, Spie Innorail) which would dramatically constrict the number of potential RFP bidders. That would theoretically limit the value for taxpayers from IO's AFP model.
DeleteFWIW, OCS systems can operate in catenary-free sections for much of the route — Bombardier's Primove and Alstom's Citadis Spirit both use catenary systems for a fraction of the route but can operate independently for certain distances. Ottawa’s Confederation Line, which is 12.5km, is estimated to cost $2.1B and $600M of that is 34 Citadis Spirit trains (making their North American debut).
Had the months and years of energy dedicated to killing LRT used to better the project (or if Hamilton was willing to entertain a substantial capital investment in LRT, like Ottawa’s $700m and Waterloo’s $250m municipal commitment), the outcome might be different.
Freewheel
I believe most would agree overhead catenary systems are less aesthetically appealing than in-ground solutions. Many think they are ugly.
DeleteThat Mr. Johnson appears to be promoting a vision that is both unattractive and in conflict with existing greenery seems short sighted and ill conceived.
Had the months and years spent planning this undertaking been conducted effectively, the outcome would certainly be different.
I thought we all wanted the best solution? Interesting how that has quickly morphed into blaming opponents for a badly flawed plan.
Point being that in-ground solutions (which still rely on sections of catenary) require municipalities to step up, as in Ottawa, a route that is 1km shorter than McMaster-to-Eastgate yet carries a capital cost twice as expensive as B-Line LRT. The best solution would be the City rationalizing a capital investment in the line rather than bellyaching about the absence of a perfect, cost-free solution that solved all of Hamilton's transit woes right out of the box. Even at that, there would be some who would complain that it is money wasted on the poor or the privileged elite, that it didn't stop often enough or that it wasn't faster, that it was French, that it started running east-west instead of north south, that it didn't connect Lime Ridge Mall to the Dutchman's Mill. And so on.
DeleteGood news? The terms of the Hamilton LRT RFP are still being negotiated by the City and Metrolinx, AFAIK. You needn't blame Mr. Johnson for a future written in stone. You can contact your councillor and urge them to work to perfect rapid transit implementation in Hamilton. Better to light a candle than curse the darkness.
As well, design and consultation on the city-wide BLAST network, which is several times larger than the current route, is only just beginning, so there's plenty of time to advocate for your preferred scenario and agitate for increased spending on transit.
Godspeed,
Flywheel
"Interesting how that has quickly morphed into blaming opponents for a badly flawed plan."
DeleteWhats really interesting is all the jim graham scary boogey man sky is falling Hamilton will be ruined forever by LRT talk is now reduced to arguing over aesthetics.
Looking forward to when jim graham moves onto his new next reason LRT will fail. Probably something to do with which beverages are in the vending machines.
"Oh wont somebody please get some Root Beer in those machines before this whole LRT beverage debacle destroys Hamilton!!!"
Charles McGill
Maybe we'll see Citadis Spirits in Hamilton after all.…
Delete"Metrolinx has struck a deal with another manufacturer to provide dozens of vehicles for key Toronto-area transit projects, The Globe and Mail has learned, a sign of how much confidence the agency has lost in problem-plagued Bombardier.
The agreement would see Alstom, which is currently building light rail vehicles for the Ottawa market, produce for southern Ontario as well. At least part of the work will be done at a plant in the Toronto area."
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/toronto/metrolinks-strikes-deal-with-alstom-to-provide-vehicles-for-toronto-area-transit-projects/article34960793/
Noted
No need to hold off as technology is always changing but I thought I'd share a couple of articles none-the-less.
ReplyDeletehttps://www.thestar.com/business/2016/12/27/from-water-to-hydrogen-to-zero-emission-transport.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2017/03/22/worlds-first-zero-emissions-hydrogen-train-coming/
Still need tracks but maybe one day down the road with such advances in technology we can get rid of the poles, lines and transformer stations. Just a thought.
As you know, I think the same could be achieved with BRT but I respect last week's decision. I offer these thoughts in response to Councillor Skelly's concerns.
However, the decision has been made and maybe one day in the future we can address her, others and my own aesthetic concerns.
We can't delay though for what may happen. According to the Back to the Future movies, we shouldn't need roads in 2017. lol
Jimmy
"we can get rid of the poles, lines and transformer stations"
Deletewe can do that now with busses;-)
Just saying
I bought a furnace once too, out at Westcliffe Mall after one of "the gatherings"
ReplyDeleteBut mine only sucked the hot air out of the house. Think I got ripped.
Charles McGill.
I saw a new bus shelter installed at the corner of Upper Ottawa and Brucedale on May 9th, 2017.
ReplyDeleteThe following day it had already been defaced, tags, graffiti, etched.
One day.
We have every reason to be confident this infrastructure will look spiffy in 30 years time.
James Taylor.