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Monday, April 17, 2017

And the Survey Says......

55% of decided respondents are against LRT. 

63% believe that a referendum should be held prior to a decision being made.



See Spec story here. 
See Polling for Numbers here. 

39 comments:

  1. Mountain DewApril 17, 2017

    It's over Fred

    Mountain Dew

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. of course both Mayor Fred and Councilor Merulla believe that confirming the majority of us are in opposition is "very positive" news for the proposed undertaking.
      I wonder if "the Hamiltonian" would have any interest in having such commentary qualified?

      Delete
    2. Mountain DewApril 17, 2017

      I think it is insulting to try to spin the results. How stupid do they think we are?

      It's over. Live with it.

      Mountain Dew

      Delete
    3. Heres another accurate headline:

      "The majority of Hamiltonians are NOT opposed to LRT" Accurate.

      Heres another accurate headline:

      $48 of Hamiltonians oppose LRT, %40 support LRT, %12 undecided.

      I understand how the also accurate %55 of decided polled oppose LRT headline would be attractive.

      Was The Hamiltonian going to publish ANY other result of the polling other than %55 of decided polled oppose LRT?

      Thank you in advance for your answer

      Jim Taylor

      Delete
    4. The Hamiltonian AdminApril 18, 2017

      No, we did not see the need as we linked to the entire article. Our views on this poll have been made known on another thread.

      The Hamiltonian Admin

      Delete
    5. DRESCHEL: Majority of polled residents oppose LRT

      Headline from the Spectator.

      Headliner

      Delete
    6. "DRESCHEL: Majority of polled residents oppose LRT"

      But thats not factually accurate. %40 support, %12 undecided. The Spectator headline is incorrect. You see how right?

      Allan Graham

      Delete
    7. To the admin at The Hamiltonian. Just to be clear, you linked to the full article in The Spec so you werent going to provide the number of supporters or undecided polled?

      Thanks in advance

      Jim Taylor

      Delete
    8. The Hamiltonian AdminApril 18, 2017

      Jim:

      Thanks for your comment. Your statement is correct and it is in keeping with our approach in many other matters. With a click of a mouse, our readers can read the entire article, which we expect that many will do.

      Our views on the value of this poll have been published on the thread entitled Polling for Numbers. The Hamiltonian remains neutral on this topic and all others, and we accept that bias sometimes is assumed by a small group of readers. We can't do anything about that. All we can do is strive to remain neutral and demonstrate that by publishing all views on this and other topics.

      Thanks for your comment. In the future, please email admin@thehamiltonian.info if you have suggestions or concerns about how the site is run.

      Thanks again Jim and good to see everyone engaging on this important topic.

      Delete
    9. I think you're too nice. I don't think that deserved your very polite reply.

      From the sidelines

      Delete
    10. or class in response to crass. Wins every time.

      Delete
  2. It's all but verified that support for LRT was never there

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. %48 opposed to LRT. %30 support LRT. And Allan Taylor says "support for LRT was never there"

      This is an example of how too many people in Hamilton "reason"

      Allan Graham

      Delete
    2. %48 opposed to LRT. %40 support LRT.

      Allan Graham

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    3. or for everyone in favor, an additional 20% were in clear opposition. Yes, this is reason, a compelling reason.

      Delete
    4. Correct 10 years of trying to sell a project and claims that the majority want lrt is up in fames. It was never true

      Delete
    5. 40% in favour isn't majority support. There's no way to spin it to mean majority support

      Delete
    6. It's not all but verified, Allan. No poll was done that support was there at the beginning, 10 years ago.

      One poll, paid for by 9 of the Gang of 10, says that almost half of those polled oppose it. When you dig deeper the problems with the poll become more clear. This would be my feeling on it if the results had been the other way.

      Let's not forget, the Gang of 10 has an agenda to push in an election year. They need to keep their seat so they do what's safe with the group that votes, older people. The same who do not go downtown, don't rely on transit, and read the nonsense that's been in the Spectator or on CHML for the past 6 months. The same group disproportionately represented in this poll.

      ~Mountain Man

      Delete
    7. "or for everyone in favor, an additional 20% were in clear opposition. Yes, this is reason, a compelling reason." Your math makes no sense.

      Todd King

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    8. what is 20% of 40 Todd? Your responses are enlightening.

      Delete
  3. The Provincial Government will now be aware of validated public opinion re LRT as they approach a dificult election. Council should now consider presenting  options that benefit all area ridings based on the Premier's  commitment to Hamilton transit funding. The Rapid Ready Documentwhich calls for transit ridership growth as a precursor to future LRT. The Province made it clear that Regional Express Rail is now driving transit planning which could help accelerate half hour all day GO Train Service from Stoney Creek to the GTA, especially in view of the recent Federal announcement of $196 million in funding for the Burlington-Stoney Creek corridor.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. "Council should now consider presenting options that benefit all area ridings based on the Premier's commitment to Hamilton transit funding…the Province made it clear that Regional Express Rail is now driving transit planning."

      February 2014: "Minister of Transportation Glen] Murray says full-day GO will have to wait until the stretch of track between Hamilton and Aldershot is ready, and that could be another couple of years after the Pan Am games. “That’s expensive. We’re talking $2 billion of investment to buy the track, upgrade the track and to get the equipment.” Hamilton Mayor Bob Bratina who has long fought for all-day GO says he’s not disappointed with the timeline." http://www.chch.com/james-go-station-work-start-spring/

      So that's $2B of the $13.5B the province is spending on RER across southern Ontario, already dedicated to Hamilton transit. Moving Ontario Forward funding is capital funding, and the province has already allocated substantial capital investments to this end. Council can waive its claim to $1B in MOF funds but it can't allocate where it will be reinvested — that's ultimately the province's call. Maybe it would fund rail enhancements from Stoney Creek to Niagara, or maybe somewhere else within the RER network, since systemic capacity benefits all users.

      Lionel Bachmann

      Delete
  4. Alternative poll:
    Q1. Have you heard of LRT?
    Q2. Based on what you've heard, do you like LRT?
    Q3. Do you like Yes/No questions?

    Accurate to within a hare's brain.

    Rimshot

    ReplyDelete
  5. Looking at the Population breakdown for LRT results.

    In Hamilton, less than %20 of the population is 65 plus. Over %40 of those polled are 65 plus.

    In Hamilton, less than %20 of the population is 55 to 64. Almost %30 of those polled are 55 to 64.

    It gets worse the younger you get.

    45 to 54 under represented by 2 points.

    35 to 33 under represented by 7 points.

    Get this.

    Hamiltonians 18 to 34 make up almost %30 of the population, but were represented by a sample of less than %5. Really.

    Going to look at the Income and Geography breakdown next. I hope it isnt the same horror show as this breakdown.

    Allan Graham

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. unable to provide anything reputable to contradict the findings, advocates now take exception to the methodology of the survey. Perhaps the pollsters should have surveyed a list of pre qualified millennials and attempted to contact them telepathically?
      For every 18-34 year old polled who was in favor, there were an additionsal 20% more in opposition, and this remained true across the spectrum. Look at Income and Geography breakdown next-exactly the same result-and get back to us with how you view the results.
      Take your time.

      Delete
    2. "unable to provide anything reputable to contradict the findings" The poll results speak for themselves. %48 oppose LRT, %40 support LRT. Th exact same number from the 2011 IPSOS poll in KW regarding LRT. That result was also %48 oppose, %40 support. It was the death knell for the anti LRT crowds factually baseless claim that "no one, NO ONE in KW supported LRT".

      last year, the Hamilton mediawhas been full of people saying that NO merchants on King wanted LRT on King.

      They were proven wrong.

      Last year the same people said NO new business would open on King until after the LRT was built, and maybe not then.

      They have been proven wrong.

      The same people have been saying all along EVERYONE in Hamilton is opposed to LRT.

      They have been proven wrong.

      The same people have been saying all along there is NO support for LRT in Hamilton.

      They have been proven wrong.

      Allan Graham

      Delete
    3. who are you talking about? why so vague? are these those same straw men who speak in dog whistle you like to reference at every available opportunity? You would be doing us all a favor if you were able to publicly identify this strange new demographic.

      "unable to find anything reputable to contradict the findings"

      I have been saying for years I believe more residents in Hamilton oppose the plan than support it, and I have been proven correct. And I attach my real name to my commentary so as there is no ambiguity or confusion respecting my responsibility therein.

      Delete
  6. In peeling the onion, the stink arises.

    LRT support is simply not there.
    Sorce

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. 40% of the population support it. How is that not there?

      Jim Taylor

      Delete
    2. again inaccurate and untrue. 40% of decided voters are in favor, and for every 2 in favor, there are 3 opposed. We know this is a challenge for those who have repeatedly spouted this is already a "done deal" and that concerns are meaningless to accept. You made your bed.

      Delete
    3. %48 decided they oppose LRT. %40 decided they support LRT. %12 decided they were undecided. The most clear and accurate way to present the findings. And in disputable.



      Jim Taylor

      Delete
  7. If I made a decision in my business based on 40% of my clients. I'd lose the 60%.
    Sorce

    ReplyDelete
  8. Majority of old residents oppose LRT

    https://twitter.com/higgicd/status/854074234188050432

    Rimshot

    ReplyDelete
  9. Jim asks, all confused, when asked about those that said (wrongly) there is no support for LRT "who are you talking about? why so vague? are these those same straw men.."

    Well here one from this thread.

    Sorce April 18, 2017
    In peeling the onion, the stink arises.

    LRT support is simply not there.
    Sorce

    Here another

    Allan Taylor April 17, 2017

    It's all but verified that support for LRT was never there

    Jim says Im inventing straw men when I speak of the many people being proven wrong when they say LRT has no support. Jim doesnt have to look very far.

    Jim Taylor

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. straw men? these are the imaginary "dog whistler's" who torment you? Allen? Sorce? Why do reasonable people expressing opinions cause you so much angst?
      I challenge you to reference a quote supporting the position that anyone here ever said "LRT has no support" Look far and wide. Spin it until satisfied, then return and present your perspective. Your arguments are absolutely invaluable to those in opposition.
      We salute you.

      Delete
    2. jim graham says:

      "I challenge you to reference a quote supporting the position that anyone here ever said "LRT has no support" Look far and wide"

      Didnt have to look far.

      Didnt have to look wide.

      I scrolled up.

      S
      orce April 18, 2017 The Hamiltonian

      In peeling the onion, the stink arises.

      LRT support is simply not there.

      Sorce

      "LRT support is simply not there"

      Theres one.

      Heres another.

      Allan Taylor April 17, 2017 The Hamiltonian

      It's all but verified that support for LRT was never there

      "..support for LRT was never there"

      Jim Taylor

      Delete
  10. I can't believe it. I'm sure they will decide to move forward with it. Heck, a billion dollars of free money. All the same taxpayer though.

    The argument, if we don't waste the billion dollars someone else will.

    That is the big problem, a Provincial Government plagued by numerous scandals all at the expense of us taxpayers. No another disaster in the making.

    That McMeekin is quite the guy. If you don't use it someone else will use it. My government will blow the money one way or another. Then the intimidation, Hamilton taxpayers will have to pay back the "70" million already spent. Nice, can hardly wait till next June. Hopefully, we get a government that reduces taxpayer costs.

    Jimmy

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Agreed. Ideally, the next government makes lazy municipalities like Hamilton start paying their own way. When there's only one taxpayer, it's all the same at the end of the day.

      I can't blame the province or feds for wanting to take investments elsewhere, though. Hamilton's council is a scandal unto itself.

      McGill

      Delete
    2. Re: "Then the intimidation, Hamilton taxpayers will have to pay back the "70" million already spent."

      The final cost to the city of cancelling the Scarborough LRT — possibly between $75 million and $85 million — is being kept secret, though the repayment is already included in the city’s capital budget plan.

      Outgoing city manager Joe Pennachetti said Thursday for the first time that the cost to be paid by the city has already been decided and is priced out in the 10-year capital plan unveiled this week.

      Those “sunk” costs — money spent on a project that can’t be recovered — have always been pegged by Metrolinx at about $85 million, but could now be closer to $75 million. They will be fully shouldered by the city after council, under the Rob Ford administration, voted to scrap the seven-stop light rail line, fully funded by the province, that was already in the works and instead build a $3-billion, three-stop Scarborough subway extension.

      “Are we responsible for those sunk costs? Yes,” Pennachetti told the Star.

      https://www.thestar.com/news/city_hall/2015/01/23/city-to-pay-millions-for-cancelled-scarborough-lrt-but-final-cost-kept-secret.html

      That $3-billion, three-stop Scarborough subway extension has since become a $3.35B – $5B, one-stop subway extension, toward which the City of Toronto has committed roughly $1B.

      https://www.thestar.com/news/city_hall/2017/02/28/cost-of-scarborough-subway-extension-rises-to-335b.html

      Sigma Cub

      Delete

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